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  #31  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:13 PM
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DBailey DBailey is offline
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Originally Posted by MLong View Post
If you still don't believe that weight distribution, COG and track width have nothing do with the cars performance, then I suggest you read Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams. It is an excellent introduction to race chassis building and vehicle setup.
This weight adjustment makes zero sense, and not a single person has been able to give a valid reason for the change.
Matt--please re-read my original and second posts--I NEVER said these things are not important. You don't know me or my son Aaron or his or my knowledge on vehicle dynamics. You are talking down to the wrong guys.

Despite all these terrible things about the fox mustang You won the runoffs in one! And was chased by one of the premiere A Sedan drivers in one of the best prepped cars in the country. You (and others) have proven that the Fox can handle with the best of the other models in the class.

A valid reason for the fox to be at the same weight as other full prep cars?
How about power to weight
How about Weight to tire size
How about 2 wins in last 5 years and nearly a 3rd win
And --Tell me why should your car have a power to weight advantage over my 3rd gen f-body or RP f-body, or even other mustangs, when all evidence shows your fox can handle as well as my f-body's---I didn't see your fox body being passed in any corner by anything.

There are the valid reasons for the weight change you asked for--
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  #32  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:49 PM
Andy Jones Andy Jones is offline
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Your comments make a pretty convincing case that the Fox weight was pretty much just right before the change.

Competitive with other well prepared cars, capable of winning with the right driver and a lot of good luck.
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  #33  
Old 03-22-2018, 01:00 PM
Tim White Tim White is offline
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I have to agree with Andy. I have sent my letter to the CRB in support of the proposed weight changes, leaving the Fox body alone and lowering a few cars to 3200.
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  #34  
Old 03-23-2018, 02:43 PM
Danny"TheKid"Richardson Danny"TheKid"Richardson is offline
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Lots of very good information in this thread. I applaud the research that everyone is doing and the letters being written!

Just a data point on our car. (3rd Gen Camaro)

We have never been able to have a perfectly balanced car on the scales. With lexan and everything we have done this winter the best front to rear we can get without screwing cross weight is just under 56%. We have 0 Ballast in the 3rd gen and are still 20-30lbs heavy. (Granted i could probably lose 15-20 out of the driver's seat!)

We can only pull off about 5 Deg of negative camber in the front. I have heard of some other 3rd gens getting 6 but not sure how they did it. The biggest restriction on our camber is the shock body hitting the inner fender well.

Now i have seen a fox with all four tires the same weight and 7 deg of negative camber in the front thanks to the ball joint and lower arm rules.

The 4th Gen has a weird front end setup to it. (Dean/Aaron can chime in here) it is insanely stiff and heavy. If you watch John H car in the indy video (Lord knows you see it enough HAH! - The was for Jim) you can see how soft he had to make that car to get it to be nimble around those tight corners. It looks like he damn near pulled the springs out of the car entirely.

Then there was the caddy driven by Drew (hats off to a fantastic drive). That thing looked like a tank through the corners that he had to almost rear torque steer the car. Everytime he hit the brakes trying to go deep like a FP he locked up the left front.

Finally we have Bryans car, the fox. Brian is a fantastic driver and very nice guy. Never got to laugh with him at the track until this year and i think we had a few good smiles. His team set that car up perfectly with a very talented driver. It was smooth and looked like he was in a rhythmic dance around Indy.

So ignoring the stuff about the 3rd gen. Looking at the top three. You have a Brick, a pogostick, and dance partner. (Not trying to offend) So if we add 50 lbs to the dance partner, he can add it wherever he wants and make an even better partner. (Confusing yes but kind of agreeing with Dean). The pogo stick and the brick are still going to be fighting the natural detriments, and I think the dance partner is going to continue to smooth like butter. IMO i dont think this is going to change anything. I believe that even with the 50 lbs the Fox is still a monster car to have.

But we digress. If someone came to me tomorrow and told me to add 100 lbs to the car so i could race. I would throw the lead in pay my entree fee and go do the thing that makes all other sports look like golf. (Sorry golfers).

VIR Majors coming up and thats the new runoffs in 2019! Who is joingin me John H Jerry P and Beth for some fun in the woods
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  #35  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:59 PM
scottdolsen scottdolsen is offline
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Danny, The only time our cars have raced each other (2104 Runoffs) we out qualified you by .2 seconds. Our best race lap was quicker by .1 . Now I will be 200 pounds heaver than you. How is that fair?
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  #36  
Old 03-23-2018, 06:46 PM
MLong MLong is offline
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Take a close look at the 3 Fox Mustang wins in the past 10 years and how they played out.

2012
Sloe and McDermid had a 23 second lead on Hosni in 3rd place, a late caution bunched up the field, McDermid was out and Sloe had a hurt engine.

Hosni wins by 0.1 seconds, with his fastest lap over 2 seconds slower than the race fastest and was 3-4 fastest overall.

2014
McDermid has a 10 second lead after 7 laps and runs the rest of the race with 3 brake rotors in spectacular fashion. It takes Bailey and Olsen the whole race to catch Andy, and Olsen takes the lead on the last lap and after a questionable pass.

Olsen wins by 2 seconds, with his fastest lap about 2 seconds slower than the race fastest. Again was 3-4 fastest overall.

2017
Bryan wins flag to flag, with a fastest race lap less than a tenth faster than Heinricy and wins the race by 0.4 seconds.

We ran at 3200 lbs, by the end of the race, we heads cords showing on 3 tires. The tires had 21 laps of race time on them. Another 50-100 lbs will render the Fox obsolete from ever running in the top 3.

So to make sure we are all on the same page here, a Fox Mustang comes from behind from the misfortune of others and fractionally sets fastest lap and fractionally wins one race, it's time to slow them down. There still has not been one good response that justifies the weight adjustments to either of the Mustang models.

Dangerous precedent to set here, will all Runoffs winner models get 100 lbs penalties from here on out? The 2017 was one of the closest matched races on many years, on a neutral track and multiple models of cars, and weight penalty gets applied to a car that was as competitive to others.

It has been 7 years since we last ran the runoffs, and have no intention of going back in the future unless it is closer to home.
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  #37  
Old 03-23-2018, 06:54 PM
scottdolsen scottdolsen is offline
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2018 Runoffs are in our part of the country, less than a days tow. We will not be there.

Furthermore, I propose that all fox cars stay home and in the garage this season in protest to the unfair penalties.
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  #38  
Old 03-23-2018, 08:27 PM
thomas toth thomas toth is offline
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Matt,

I may by a 3rd Gen guy but I agree with you 100%. Thought you could give Andy a good race if he didn't wreck. Both you and Hosni have very well prepared cars and you drive the wheels off of them (watch ED's final Runoff laps). Thought the SCCA did a great job based on the race and qualifying times of your Fox, the CTS, Gen 4 and Gen 3 Camaro. AS isn't and shouldn't be a spec. class.

Tom
#38 Camaro
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  #39  
Old 03-23-2018, 08:56 PM
Danny"TheKid"Richardson Danny"TheKid"Richardson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdolsen View Post
Danny, The only time our cars have raced each other (2104 Runoffs) we out qualified you by .2 seconds. Our best race lap was quicker by .1 . Now I will be 200 pounds heaver than you. How is that fair?
I could be wrong but I think we are the same weight now. Sorry if I'm incorrect. We are 3250
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  #40  
Old 03-23-2018, 09:36 PM
PbFoot PbFoot is offline
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Let's cut to the chase here. The SCCA has set up a system (at least in AS) where a few active participants in AS have major sway over the class rules and competition adjustments. This is the very definition of conflict of interest.

I'm sure that the members of the ASAC feel that their actions are justified, but the on track results (as outlined by many) and the Club's own definition of what warrants competition adjustments do not appear to jive with the last 2 weight penalties.

Also remember that in 2016 the Foxes were hit with a 100# net penalty after the top Fox finished 5th at the RO's and no Fox had a wrench touch the car in impound. Then one year later after both Andy and Tom Sloe were not factors at the RO's, the AS RO's witnessed one of the closes races in years. Result, add another 100#'s to the Foxes and the 05-14 Fords (which BTW the top late model Ford finisher was in 8th place). Interesting that no wt was added to the car that finished a few feet behind in second.
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