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Old 03-03-2021, 05:15 AM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,020

Hi Dean.

Long time no talk. Happy things are going well for you and Aaron.

You gotta admit you smiled this time, with the new twist that a new crb was about to take the cookie away. And oh my the sky was falling until they got their way.

I see the gangs all here. Hi Scott.

Wish we could get Fandozzi to chime in.

Oh I forgot. Hi Jim. Hi Pam.

And this wouldn't be a party without Talladega. Where's Joe?

Jeff Werth you here?

Tom Wallace?
Brian Wallace?
Kristian Smith?
Pat Wilmot?
Chris Bernard?
Kyle Watkins?
Bill Shepergherdes?
Bill Tucker?
Eric Butze?
Tom Smith?
Dane Smith?
Frank Safranek?
Mark Beacom?
Ross Murray?
Ross Thompson?
Csaba Budjidos?
Monte Cowles?
Mike Lavigne?
Tom Ellis?
Jim Stevens?
Sam Henry?
Richard Ciohan?
Carey Grant?
Bill Gray?
Brian LaCroix?
Rocky Eli?
David Long?
Tom Bernard?
Steve Skelton?
Wilson Swilley?

Buehler? Buehler?
Old 03-03-2021, 10:13 AM
Tim White Tim White is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 391

Tom and Dane Smith brought the AS cars out last year. As you know there are many reasons people stop racing AS, in many cases they stopped racing completely. Others had larger ambitions. Yes, some didn't like the direction the rules where taking. In the end there will always be attrition, the question is how to attract new cars and limit the attrition? I thought we were starting to have a constructive discussion on this topic.

I will ask what I believe are the two basic questions. Based on the current rules which cars on the spec page cannot be competitive? Is there a way to correct this in a cost effective way and not penalize the other cars?

There are obviously issues that need to be addressed, like FP heads. My thought is what ever direction this goes, either better heads or worse heads that weight is used to help balance performance.
Old 03-03-2021, 11:16 AM
PamRichardson PamRichardson is offline
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 863
Default Competitiveness, version....

Tim --

Lots of good questions and points. This is my take on it. It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with me, as I have no influence over any of it any more. But, from my engineering standpoint (particularly the systems engineering part of me), I think first and foremost, any team can figure out which cars will be competitive and, if they dedicate themselves to complete car development and driver development, they can have a winning combination.

So what do I think, with my 30 years in AS? With the present ruleset:

1. Any FP car, with an exquisite shoe, can be developed to win the Runoffs.

2. Any RP car in this list, with an exquisite shoe, can be developed to win the Runoffs.

a. Mustang with a Coyote engine

b. 4th Gen Camaro with an LS1

c. Caddy CTSV

Truthfully, that doesn't leave much of our slate of cars off the table, IMHO.

What about new heads, you say? Well, I need to trust that they will be managed appropriately. And maybe, weight isn't always the answer. Especially with the FP cars, because, the FP cars run the smallest wheels and tires.

And, just so you know, Danny was right about how we developed our program. It took years, dedication to R&D, developing a nationwide team of vendors, and lots of dedication on his part toward training himself. As far as money, well, just one example for you to ponder. We weren't always a two engine team. There came a time about 10 years ago, I started to save up parts on a yearly basis for the second motor. One year it was the crank, then another, the pistons, then another year it was the heads. After about 4-5 seasons, we had enough parts to build, and so we spread the cost out over a number of years. We've been operating that way ever since. Not everything happens to the car every year.

And, since I am being open, we do have some sponsorship (And that sponsorship shall remain private), but the sponsorship does not pay for everything. We continue to put a significant amount into the program ourselves. Why, BECAUSE WE THINK AS IS THE MOST FUN CLASS TO BE IN AND WE WANT TO DO IT!

Nuff said? Pam
Old 03-03-2021, 12:22 PM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,020

Final closing: What sat on the grid at the 2020 runoffs was one car with another guys motor in it, another car with my trans in it, another car with my rear diff in it, another car with my trans in it, and the list goes on. We are a bunch of red necks that wanna race and go fast. Cant do that at home.

This is AS.


I totally get the point of great sportsmanship and racers helping racers. But at the runoffs with everyone bringing their a game, this is still the reality like it was in the iron head era?

You rallied everyone for dog boxes. I helped get the autogear thing going for the muncies, 9 inch Ford's are legal and this is still common?

The full prep engine needs to be dialed back more than I thought

The new crb got my attention that there was hope. On a positive reply kudos to the new crb and Kevin Fandozzi. A true visionary on what this class really needs

If you are truly trying to sell me and others on coming back, that is the worst sales pitch ever. I lived that for many seasons. That same helping spirit is everywhere in amateur racing. It's just a matter of the best bang for the buck with reliable drivetrains

And still you can't answer my question then and now
Old 03-03-2021, 01:10 PM
Danny"TheKraken"Richardson Danny"TheKraken"Richardson is offline
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 509

Don't even remember the question.

The idea of trying to convince people to come back is pretty exhausting. If you want to race bad enough you will do it whether its here or somewhere else. Its just my personal view that in a time (unlike 20 years ago) where there are so many different places people can race (SCCA, NASA, AER, Gridlife, Lemons, WRL, etc.) the goal should be more of an inclusion one. Don't ostracize what you have and chase them off, increase what others want to match what you have.

Ted, I am fairly confident you will never come back. You have clearly made that up in your mind.

As far as the runoffs are concerned, I do not believe it is the same way that it was. Seems to me that everyone is willing to help, teach, and work together to enjoy the weekend that we all work so hard for. When I broke in 2019, I didn't just sulk on the wall watching the race, I was screaming at the top of my lungs watching Steve fight hard for 4th or the Jimmy heinrocket show that was going on. I genuinely feel like the AS of today is a group of people just love the competition and the sport. People aren't keeping drivers away from their paddock spots or anything. The only real change has been a lack of an AS party at the runoffs (we should bring it back).

I watched that video of the 2002 runoffs. I saw a bunch of guys spinning each other and ripping their heads off. Don't see that much anymore. It was definitely entertaining at work!

The rules have given us the ability to focus on racing and having fun versus spending every weekend wrenching like crazy (yes there are exceptions) When is the last time you saw an engine pop at the runoffs? Probably mine in 13? There were 36 cars in 2002. There were 36 cars in 2013.

PS Fandozzi has nothing to do with AS anymore. He races Formula cars now.

Keep the FP car as a baseline and give the other cars what they need to get there. I don't understand why that is so hard. Don't piss off the guys running and make the guys that want more go get it. The data is there. Boxes went in every event, almost every car. Use it. Data doesn't lie.

BTW: last year Atlanta had 3 cars? this year 7. RP, Spec M, and FP. I wish I could be there but you better believe ill be watching with baited breath.

Love this class. Cant wait to see the numbers when covid is over and people get their lives back.

Those of you willing to go, see you at the track. Ill be the guy smiling and having fun no matter what position I'm in.
Old 03-03-2021, 01:12 PM
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DBailey DBailey is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 149
Default Still more of the same-----

Here we are full circle--again---

Pam--If what you say is true, a rp car would have won the runoffs by now--at least once---BUT, as I mentioned time and again they have been out revved by FP cars!!--could this be the reason that when the old car was considered junk that you built another 3rd gen at more expense and less durability than building a 4th or 5th gen car? Especially considering the durability problems you seem to have had for the past few years. Pure conjecture on my part---

A Rev limiter WILL NOT "PULL BACK" FP CARS!!! it only will move the power band to be closer to the RP stock engine power band! SAME HP and SAME or more torque as the engine had. OH--and gee-- more reliability!---
On most FP engines this can be accomplished by a change in Camshaft timing.

Statement like "pulling back FP engines" (I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement over the years),-automatically confirms that the existing rules favor FP cars and that the RP cars have less power and are therefor less competitive.
For the 10 years We were in A/S I had and ran both a FP car and a RP car--at the same time--all ten years--and would back to back these cars. I have firsthand knowledge of what I'm pointing out.

If you really don't want to have rev limiters and dial back your "REVS"
Then let all the RP cars build the new engines to the same specs as the existing Ford and Chevy FP engines-- I guarantee they will be faster, more durable and make more power. Not going to happen------

Times are changing and the antique 8'000 rpm engines of the 60's and 70's and 80's are truly for the vintage set---more efficient better designed engines have been the norm for the past 20 years---
Move forward or get out of the way---

As I said--more of the same---Later----
Old 03-03-2021, 01:22 PM
PamRichardson PamRichardson is offline
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Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 863
Default why did we build another 3rd gen

Dean --

Because I did the research and it was the lowest cost option for us. We had 4 months till we were on track. It was also the lowest time option for us. And problems have been more of the gremlin type than anything else.

The rules have changed a lot since you were running. The car you ran is the same kind of car that was 3rd at the Runoffs in 2020, with the driver (in the meeting at the Runoffs) passing along that with the changes, it was good on power and didn't need anything more.

The ASAC allows the Coyote in practically all RP Mustangs at this point and the restrictor size has been increased.

The Caddy has had changes as well and is definitely there too.

Just clarifying, Pam
Old 03-03-2021, 01:52 PM
andy mcdermid andy mcdermid is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 271

Got to go with Pam and Danny. Still not sure why bringing cars up to the class bench mark, FP, is such a big deal. Clearly they're about there now. Remember, Dean, you guys were winning the runoffs until somebody screwed you guys. I still consider you guys as the winner's of that runoffs, Baten finished 2nd and you guys 4th, RP cars. Back in the old days AS would start 40 ish cars, blow up 20 and crash a few. Now we don't have engine failures, RP cars are right there and a very economical way to get it.
The FP prep engines are very reliable and a good bang for the buck long term investment.
The committee is working on a new head and a way to bring it in without a "I can't win if I don't have them" approach.
I'm still confused on the RPM works better than HP and torque thing but I respect you opinion.
We don't have to agree on everything but I think we agree on AS is a great class and like ALL classes a work in progress.
BTW at least one person on the "list" finished the runoffs last year.

Last edited by andy mcdermid; 03-03-2021 at 03:07 PM.
Old 03-03-2021, 09:12 PM
PbFoot PbFoot is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 236

We seem to have these spasms about changes to the rule set on a regular bases. As usual, no changes occur.

I'm in the camp with Ted and Dean, with my difference being that I have raced in AS continuously since 1994. (I was very young when I started, LOL). I'm stubborn to a fault and have stuck with AS all these years with iron heads. No more. I thought with the resent rule change proposals, that the class might head back to it's roots, but with the BOD decision, I don't think that is the case.

IMO, AS has devolved into a playground for the top five cars in the country, with those top folks hoping that enough back markers stay to keep from it from being removed as a National class. BTW, in the mid 90's to mid 2000's this was not the case

Ted, you can add me the the former AS competitor list.

Knowing that some have a 4 handle on their rear gear at Road American and knowing that I have used a 3.55 forever, I now know it's time to go.

Best of luck to all, I had a great time, I just stayed too long.

Tom Himes
Old 03-04-2021, 08:27 AM
Ted Johnson Ted Johnson is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,020

Originally Posted by andy mcdermid View Post
You got me Ted, I don't and have never helped a new or existing competitor.
Don't know what to say.

For everyone else, If you call Lane Automotive, they have been instructed, by me, to give out any part number I run or have run. Also they are instructed to give my phone to anyone that needs help in the AS class.
This has been my policy for over 20 years of dealing with Lane Automotive. Further, as I've stated many times on this forum over the years, anyone who has questions, needs help with their car please PM me. I'll share anything I have/do on my car.

Ted, please come back to race with us. IF you just want to complain on a forum about how you are being treated "unfairly" just go away !
Could you share the flow bench numbers on your intake manifold, and heads, and do a direct comparison between out of the box heads and out of the box manifold?

Also the amount of time and money in labor from porting and polishing to achieve your flow numbers you are about to share?

Any other tips to achieve these flow numbers beyond porting and polishing?

Also the labor costs on your carb modifications? Flow numbers on your carb vs out of the box 600 cfm carb? How many do you have?

Can grind specs would be helpful as well

Valve spring replacement interval?

Dyno charts would also be very helpful

Engine refresh intervals and costs associated with

Is your pricing on parts from Lane the same as the rest of us who will go there to get the same parts you use?

Any special block preparation labor costs?

And please if your interested in growing the class post them publically

Maybe I was wrong about you Andy.

I'm getting excited. Pen ready
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