Go Back   American Sedan Forum > Main American Sedan Categories > ASAC News

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-02-2021, 03:21 PM
DBailey's Avatar
DBailey DBailey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 149
Default More of the Same---

It is quite interesting reading these arguments about the rules for this class--the same arguments for 15 years and the same arguments about RP-FP for the past 8 or 9 years--

Danny does make some good points, as does Ted --
Danny--Your list of past winners also shows one thing you haven't addressed, Not 1 RP car in the last 10 years has won the Runoffs. Aaron had the best chance but was punted--not out driven or prepped.
Contrary to what some on here would have everyone believe there is a reason FP cars have won all the Runoffs, and it is not the car prep or the drivers,--It is the differences in the powerplants of the cars--plain and simple. For years the cars have weighed the same or within 50lbs of each other and been on tires of the same contact patch size. Yet there is not 1 RP engine that in the A/S legal configuration is capable of revving or even using 8,000 RPM--or for that matter even 7,500RPM. And the ford or chevy full prep engine (in current A/S trim) is fully capable of revving 8,000 RPM and still making power. (easily shown using dyno sim software) This is the difference in RP and FP and it has everything to do with Physics and not drivers or car prep. If you know what to look for it can be seen in many of the Runoffs videos.

If two cars of the same weight, same gearing and same tire size--(as is the case in A/S ) come out of a corner at the same speed and one can rev to 8K it will go faster top end per gear---every time every place. The LP LS engines--and for that matter any engine with Hydraulic lifters will be rev limited by this type of valvetrain--(that includes this "crate engine")--And the current FP guys certainly don't want to see short stroke big bore solid roller lifter LS engines!!!

The argument that torque "makes up" for this is just not true because the tires are a limiting factor on Acceleration and Braking and Cornering.. One can have 500ft/lbs of torque and it is worthless unless it can be put to the ground.

With an A/S car there are really only 3 important limiting factors--
Tire Size, Weight, RPM's These three things affect the cars lap times more than any other car-related factor.

The status quo in A/S benefits those solid lifter Short Stroke big bore engines
and it always will until rev limiters are put in place to even the field

They are tech-able and rev limits have been used in every other form of motorsport in one way or another-- for years.
And Danny--yes the 600 Holley is a restrictor--only up to a point--
High RPM's allow faster air flow thru the carb therefore allowing more HP
The Carb, Headers, or a restrictor plate, are only true restrictors if an engine is RPM limited. Otherwise they are just something in the way---


For Sure I understand not wanting the changes--especially when one has a good thing going, and is on top,---but as it is, the class is a failing class, and could easily be gone in a few years.

No one builds new cars for A/S because they are antiquated technology and are way too expensive for what they are.

We left the class after 8 years for these reasons--We now Race in P1 --are competitive against the best--have spent less money on the car and development, and we have spend less money on a both a big Aero upgrade and new engine than a full prep engine alone.

I still have an A/S car tho--I liked the class--nothing like trying to get that big pig thu turns and stay on the track--My car is being built for Vintage tho--A lot less money, same fun factor, and it is competitive

If I have offended any of you--I in no way meant to do that!--This month marks the 50th anniversary of my first SCCA race (as a engine guy/crew) I've seen the same "discussions" on here since 2005 and thru all that only seen the class shrink, and become more expensive,-- to what it is now,--and it is a real shame---and it is VERY frustrating---
  #32  
Old 03-02-2021, 03:39 PM
Danny"TheKraken"Richardson Danny"TheKraken"Richardson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 509
Default

Ted,
Thanks for the kind words. Sorry back to 09 was really when I followed the runoffs so thats when i cut it off.

I try my best to instruct at the DC Region drivers school every year to help everyone that enters racing. I get the same questions about AS by most of the people that go there. I tell them all of the expenses and costs of our program. But then i explain to them the route we have taken to get where we are. We didn't just stroke a check to get here. We saved up and did one upgrade a year. The entire time working on my driving and the car setup. That is what development is. The truth is you could build an exact copy of our car as it sits for less then a top 5 spec miata. Racing is expensive in every class if you want to go fast. It is up to you as a driver whether or not you want to put the effort and time in or not.

Also, after we found out about the twins Elena's first question was what we have to do so I don't stop racing. Love of a good woman is a big step in the right direction.

As far as champions willing to help the class l will share with you my own personal experiences with previous champions.

My first ever trip to Road America Andy sat down with a track map and told me how to be fast there.
Tom Sloe came to me at Pitt Race while i was without any crew and helped me troubleshoot valve issues.
John H has sat down with me at VIR and Laguna and discussed race strategies with me.
Greg has had countless hours of phone calls and track discussions with me about transmissions and other issues.
Eddy came and sat with me at VIR and we talked about the racing line.

If you think our champions are inaccessible or not willing to work with new drivers you are dead wrong.

Part of what makes this class so amazing is the people. I have grown up around these guys and never not once have any of them not been approachable. It melts my heart watching them embrace my daughter when she's at the track. Its like a bunch of uncles and aunts.

At the end of the day, anyone that wants to know anything about our program just needs to ask. Ill bring them to the car and go over every inch if they want. Exact offer I gave to Andy S at RA when we hung out for a bit.

Final closing: What sat on the grid at the 2020 runoffs was one car with another guys motor in it, another car with my trans in it, another car with my rear diff in it, another car with my trans in it, and the list goes on. We are a bunch of red necks that wanna race and go fast. Cant do that at home.

This is AS.
  #33  
Old 03-02-2021, 03:47 PM
Danny"TheKraken"Richardson Danny"TheKraken"Richardson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 509
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBailey View Post
It is quite interesting reading these arguments about the rules for this class--the same arguments for 15 years and the same arguments about RP-FP for the past 8 or 9 years--

Danny does make some good points, as does Ted --
Danny--Your list of past winners also shows one thing you haven't addressed, Not 1 RP car in the last 10 years has won the Runoffs. Aaron had the best chance but was punted--not out driven or prepped.
Contrary to what some on here would have everyone believe there is a reason FP cars have won all the Runoffs, and it is not the car prep or the drivers,--It is the differences in the powerplants of the cars--plain and simple. For years the cars have weighed the same or within 50lbs of each other and been on tires of the same contact patch size. Yet there is not 1 RP engine that in the A/S legal configuration is capable of revving or even using 8,000 RPM--or for that matter even 7,500RPM. And the ford or chevy full prep engine (in current A/S trim) is fully capable of revving 8,000 RPM and still making power. (easily shown using dyno sim software) This is the difference in RP and FP and it has everything to do with Physics and not drivers or car prep. If you know what to look for it can be seen in many of the Runoffs videos.

If two cars of the same weight, same gearing and same tire size--(as is the case in A/S ) come out of a corner at the same speed and one can rev to 8K it will go faster top end per gear---every time every place. The LP LS engines--and for that matter any engine with Hydraulic lifters will be rev limited by this type of valvetrain--(that includes this "crate engine")--And the current FP guys certainly don't want to see short stroke big bore solid roller lifter LS engines!!!

The argument that torque "makes up" for this is just not true because the tires are a limiting factor on Acceleration and Braking and Cornering.. One can have 500ft/lbs of torque and it is worthless unless it can be put to the ground.

With an A/S car there are really only 3 important limiting factors--
Tire Size, Weight, RPM's These three things affect the cars lap times more than any other car-related factor.

The status quo in A/S benefits those solid lifter Short Stroke big bore engines
and it always will until rev limiters are put in place to even the field

They are tech-able and rev limits have been used in every other form of motorsport in one way or another-- for years.
And Danny--yes the 600 Holley is a restrictor--only up to a point--
High RPM's allow faster air flow thru the carb therefore allowing more HP
The Carb, Headers, or a restrictor plate, are only true restrictors if an engine is RPM limited. Otherwise they are just something in the way---


For Sure I understand not wanting the changes--especially when one has a good thing going, and is on top,---but as it is, the class is a failing class, and could easily be gone in a few years.

No one builds new cars for A/S because they are antiquated technology and are way too expensive for what they are.

We left the class after 8 years for these reasons--We now Race in P1 --are competitive against the best--have spent less money on the car and development, and we have spend less money on a both a big Aero upgrade and new engine than a full prep engine alone.

I still have an A/S car tho--I liked the class--nothing like trying to get that big pig thu turns and stay on the track--My car is being built for Vintage tho--A lot less money, same fun factor, and it is competitive

If I have offended any of you--I in no way meant to do that!--This month marks the 50th anniversary of my first SCCA race (as a engine guy/crew) I've seen the same "discussions" on here since 2005 and thru all that only seen the class shrink, and become more expensive,-- to what it is now,--and it is a real shame---and it is VERY frustrating---
Dean- Aaron should have won in 14. Agreed. Can you imagine if you had that car to what it can be with today's rules?
  #34  
Old 03-02-2021, 05:45 PM
Scott Sanda Scott Sanda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 501
Default

I
Danny, twins? Really? Nice work, have fun, and remember, grandma may babysit them, but she is legally allowed to hand them back fully caffeinated and loaded with sugar.

Scott
  #35  
Old 03-02-2021, 05:47 PM
DBailey's Avatar
DBailey DBailey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 149
Default

Thx Danny--Actually we had the chance to buy the car back last fall, as it has been just sitting since we sold it. We did upgrade and test the car before selling it--AP 4 piston brakes and I had the hotcam as we had used it when we ran in ITE- We spent some big money on upgrades. Aaron and I talked about it but again he didn't want to go back when we had already maxed out the car. Nothing in the rules allowed us to compete with 8,000 rpm engines. Tests showed the cam added about 20 hp and we gained no revs from the cam only some torque--and we couldn't use what we already had so the gain wasn't really usable with that package.

That's why we decided to continue on with P1.

Over the past two years I have prepped 2 A/S cars--top builds--best parts
and neither run in A/S now---because of the rules--One guy sold his car and will run a tube frame GT car and the other is running in our MC class.
Also 5 more older A/S cars have come out of the woodwork in the past two years--and been re-prepped to race ---Not one will race in A/S and will race in MC-- again rules and unfair competition.

Last weekend was the first Regional of our season--5 A/S cars---ALL double dip Spec Mustangs--not one real A/S car. There were 5 MC cars racing in MC--a 1970 Camaro , a 99 camaro, and 3 third gen camaros

Whether the others racing in A/S in other parts of the country like it or not, or believe it or not, the numbers show no one's going to come into the class with the rules as they are.---
  #36  
Old 03-02-2021, 06:20 PM
andy mcdermid andy mcdermid is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 271
Default

Dean, you guys got F'd in 2014, The fox body couldn't pass you guys outright so he crash's/punts to the lead and then the idiot courts can't stop a good talker that's in the wrong. Amazing ! Notice the "new rules" for overtaking. For those who can't pass like a real driver.

Dean I respect you opinion on the engines but I'm confused about rpm vs hp/torque. Not sure what rpm has to do with either.
Would love to see you guys back.

  #37  
Old 03-02-2021, 06:53 PM
Danny"TheKraken"Richardson Danny"TheKraken"Richardson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 509
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBailey View Post
Thx Danny--Actually we had the chance to buy the car back last fall, as it has been just sitting since we sold it. We did upgrade and test the car before selling it--AP 4 piston brakes and I had the hotcam as we had used it when we ran in ITE- We spent some big money on upgrades. Aaron and I talked about it but again he didn't want to go back when we had already maxed out the car. Nothing in the rules allowed us to compete with 8,000 rpm engines. Tests showed the cam added about 20 hp and we gained no revs from the cam only some torque--and we couldn't use what we already had so the gain wasn't really usable with that package.

That's why we decided to continue on with P1.

Over the past two years I have prepped 2 A/S cars--top builds--best parts
and neither run in A/S now---because of the rules--One guy sold his car and will run a tube frame GT car and the other is running in our MC class.
Also 5 more older A/S cars have come out of the woodwork in the past two years--and been re-prepped to race ---Not one will race in A/S and will race in MC-- again rules and unfair competition.

Last weekend was the first Regional of our season--5 A/S cars---ALL double dip Spec Mustangs--not one real A/S car. There were 5 MC cars racing in MC--a 1970 Camaro , a 99 camaro, and 3 third gen camaros

Whether the others racing in A/S in other parts of the country like it or not, or believe it or not, the numbers show no one's going to come into the class with the rules as they are.---
So our engines dont make power up there. The only reason we go there is to save shifts and rear ratio gear higher for corner exit. I wonder, with the 5 and 6 speed transmissions how high could you final drive the car to make the difference?

If i had an overdrive I would never go above 7200 at most. I could run a 4.1 4.3 4.56 at every track and love life.
  #38  
Old 03-02-2021, 09:45 PM
gtofastpontiac gtofastpontiac is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: St.louis
Posts: 37
Default

My very 1st race at gateway kim mcdonald, jim wheeler and phillip smith gave me a lot of advice and help, over the years tim white, andy mcdermid, danny richardson, paul meier, matt reagan, ted warning and many more people, everyone of them has been very helpful and welcoming to the class. just seeing all the different parts from people in other peoples cars at the RA runoffs shows the kind of willingness to make sure everyone will at least be able to start the race.

as goes with any racing from nascar to F1 the teams that make the biggest investment in car and driver development usually run at the front, IMO its easier to make a case about wanting to change or add a rule if your continuing to race, instead of just not racing at all.

as far as trying to attract new people is great, but it helps no to forget about the people that have been in the class for many years and keep it going.

this is just my 2 cents worth

PS congrats danny on the twins
__________________
Andy schniedermeyer
  #39  
Old 03-02-2021, 10:37 PM
DBailey's Avatar
DBailey DBailey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 149
Default

Thanks Andy--I appreciate it--

Over the years we were in A/S I spent countless hours tring to come up with a package to be competitive--It came down to 4"+ bore and 3" stroke--
With the head flow, carbs, intakes and headers the best I saw was a 302 that made 449 max HP at the crank and 412 ft lb torque--torque curve over 350 ft/lbs was from 2500 to 6500, HP curve over 400hp was from 5300 to 8300.

An LS1 in A/S trim is done by 7k--and below 360hp crankshaft, (not to mention that hydraulic lifters are useless past 6500 or so) Whereas a proper built A/S 302 would be at peak power --450 or so at the same RPM . There is a reason the caddy's in world challenge and the vettes in ALMS sounded like they were just thumping along--they were.

We also tried what you mention--our first year at Road America we went with the gear we would normally use in the car and found he was having to use 5th (the first overdrive gear) on the straights. Upon changing to 5th the car only accelerated 1 mph the rest of the straight--our top speed was down 5-8 mph. the second time I analyzed data from T1 vettes and found they were hitting 150mph--taller gears and not using overdrive. We changed for the next trip and sure enough 149mph and spent most of the race in the top 4.

Torque accelerates the weight out of a corner (limited by traction) and horsepower keeps it gaining speed down the straightaway.

The best examples of what I'm talking about were at the Laguna runoffs--early on the race--Aaron got by John H and was chasing Andy who had driven away. 1 to 2 laps later John H. passed Aaron on the front straight--both came out of the corner at the same speed, both had the same size tire and final gearing, both had the same body car, John passed on the last 3rd of the straight when he turned 7600 and ours was done at 7k. John later broke and the rest is --history--

Another example--Runoffs at Sonoma Drew led a good part of the race only to have John pass on the fastest part of the esses when Drew was wound out and John still had RPM left.

In both of these cases the comparisons are quite valid, and fair

John, Drew and Aaron are all vehicle dynamics engineers who have tuned the suspension on some of the best handling cars in the world.
All cars were prepped by knowledgeable top people. Aaron's Firebird and Drew's Caddy have basically the same engine. John had the FP engine

to gtofastpontiac--we are not talking about forgetting the ones who have been in the class for a long time--we are talking about balancing the performance of very different types of engines--basically stock with hydraulic lifters and mild cams vs solid lifter high revving purpose built oversquare engines.

The production classes are the best example of what can be done--everything from an old british 4 or 6 cyl. pushrod engine to a twin cam 4 valve engine compete in that class and if prepped properly any of them could win.

As is apparent every time rules are written to try to balance the class the ones at the pointy end don't want anything that will bring the rest of the field closer--and I get it--perhaps I wouldn't either--- but that isn't helping "the class" it is slowly killing it.
It's up to you guys---you can equalize the class better and have to work a little more to stay at the front --with more guys to race against---or you can keep on- keepin on-- and continue to watch racers fall away.

I'm just tired of seeing so many fall away---
  #40  
Old 03-03-2021, 04:38 AM
Danny"TheKraken"Richardson Danny"TheKraken"Richardson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 509
Default

Dean
I'm all for bringing other cars closer. Do it by giving them more options. Not by neutering the people that have invested the time and money.

I wonder if the added power would allow you to still pull in 5th now. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but my street car ls3 has like 500 whp and still pulls strong through 5th. Not that I did 167 on the street or anything shhhh
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.