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rx555 07-03-2021 06:50 AM

Indy Runoffs 21
Will we have a good turn out for Indy this year? The first time there with 40 cars was great but it doesn't seem like as many guys are running this year.
The majors/super tour season is all but over. I was looking at the entry numbers for the year and they aren't great. I think it was 107. The only classes lower than us are P1, P2, GT1, GT3, GTL, and F5.
Are all the rule changes scaring people away? Just taking a year off? Once at Indy was enough? Fallout from the pandemic? Moved to another class?
I plan to be there. I'm sure the usual top teams will be. Who else? At least AS is in with T1 for quali this year instead of GT.

Danny"TheKraken"Richardson 07-03-2021 10:57 AM

We will be there. I think indy in 2017 was a complete let down as far as the track itself. I think the scca as a whole will struggle to match half of the entries they had in 17. I know a bunch of regulars that are not going or haven't run much this year to just save it for VIR in 22 and 23

rx555 07-04-2021 03:15 AM

That's what I was thinking on entries too. The national office seems to think they'll get 900 cars again and I kinda doubt it. People who are close will go and a those who missed out last time. I feel like it'll be more like 600.
I'm not going because it's a great track to drive, more because it's Indy and a Runoffs that's 4 hours away. Not planning on VIR, but we'll see.

I noticed there is a regional at The Glen coming up that has around ten AS cars entered. That's more than any Tour race other than Mid Ohio. Those guys are probably just doing it for fun without worrying about Runoffs like the Waterford group does.

PamRichardson 07-04-2021 09:34 AM

AS Regional Challenge
That group is new this year and in the building process. The qual race yesterday had 6 cars, not sure if there are mechanicals or those that could not make it. We expect them at Summit Point July 24-25. So far 7 cars are registered. We are thinking that we may get 3 or 4 more.

Their contacts are John Blanchard (Chair of the ASAC) and Tom Brown (previous AS member). Feel free to get in touch about the Challenge. Tom Brown just finished (first time out) a 5th Gen FP car. We are looking at it for our next car. People interested in building cars should get in touch with someone who has been around a while! I've been in the class in 1992, Danny, officially since he was 17 in 2004 (note that he got hooked when sitting in the stands at the Runoffs when I was driving as over 40 ground pounders flew by turn 7).

Feeding more cars and drivers into the Regional programs help to build the entire AS class. Cars/drivers seem to dip their toes in Super Tour/Majors at some point to get the feel. Most of the top teams are willing to mentor, and that includes both Danny and me. Years ago when the class began, we invited people to our garage. That invitation is still and always will be open.

For our part, anyone who is interested can PM Danny or me, or post on the Facebook page or messenger us.


Richard Pryor 07-05-2021 08:24 PM

West Coast Attitude
Hi, Pam,

I'm sure you'll see several AS cars from the Northern Pacific Division at the 2021 Runoffs...several Spec Mustang/AS cars will be going to experience Indy. Indy is a bucket list track for many drivers, and as you note, many did so the first time around to the tune of 900 strong. I am aware of several AS drivers who are qualified from here but won't be going as it is a "been there, done that". And I doubt you'll get very, very few AS drivers going to VIR in the two subsequent years. Way too far, way too much time and money.

So where does that leave AS in California? We're emulating the Waterford Hills AS group lead and emphasizing fun in AS without the cutting edge cost of Runoffs level prep and commitment. We've created a class, Muscle Car (MC) in the San Francisco Region, that is AS rules frozen at 2018 specs (no Spec Mustangs) and has a 100 tread wear tire rule for cost containment. With the pandemic winding down we're seeing interest from AS racers who dropped out for various reasons over the past years and from new racers interested in the sound and fury of an American V8 Muscle Car.

Four 3rd Gen Camaros and Firebirds have been rescued from garage hibernation and will be running later in the year and in 2022. Several 4th gens are being built right now (both RP and FP versions). And there are five new drivers joining SCCA and MC for 2022 starting with the SFR Drivers' School in January. Four cars ran the Laguna Seca Regional last month and there will be five at the next one in a few weeks and for the Labor Day Regional there will be eight MC cars on the track including two Mustangs new to the group. We anticipate having 10-14 car fields in 2022 with continuing interest in the class.

One of the factors that convinces racers to join the MC group is money. Since we're all out for fun, cost containment is a big incentive to join MC. Getting rid of Hoosier $1500 per weekend (or more) tire bills in favor of $900 per set (or less) for Toyo, Maxxis, Nankang, Nitto, etc 100 TW tires is a big draw. And so far both Toyo and Maxxis tires are showing incredible durability and consistency with one car on Maxxis having 3 full double race weekends and 3 full track days and no change in grip levels or lap times. Running 100 TW tires is something, IMHO, every AS group should consider. They run about 2 seconds a lap slower than R7 times but if everyone is on the same tire wouldn't you rather have a set of tires that costs almost half what a set of Hoosiers costs? and lasts six times as long?

So, that's my summary of AS on the West Coast...we're going to see old AS cars become MC cars...AS will continue to be populated by Spec Mustangs...AS cars will not be going to the Runoffs from here....we'll see a growing and popular AS style MC group over the next few's going to get back to having fun with AS cars in the MC group.

It seems to me that AS will continue to decrease in numbers and interest due to increase in cost of participation at the top level. Regional pockets of older, lower prep cars may join together and have just as much fun at a much lower cost. It's just different goals.

Tim White 07-06-2021 10:30 AM

I'm going. We didn't have 40 cars in 2017, it was 30 cars. I hope we can equal that. Personally, I loved the track, I thought it flowed really well.

PamRichardson 07-06-2021 04:20 PM

Hi back to Richard Pryor!
Hi Richard!

Good to hear from you and glad things are going well out there! Glad also that you are putting together a West Coast version of the AS Regional Racing Challenge! I hope it is successful and all the folks there continue to have fun. As you said, that is the goal!


Ken Felice 07-06-2021 05:34 PM

race for fun
I don't want to through water on your post. I am very glad that you are getting more AS cars. The runoffs that were in Cal. if you remember were better attended by the cars from east of the miss. river. We like to also have fun and we will travel to do it .Please try to remember what the rules are for AS why do you have change with out going thru the correct channels.
We are AS legal and plan to stay that way, to stay in AS not by changing the rules with out class input.

Ken Felice

Richard Pryor 07-06-2021 07:54 PM

New Rules
Hi, Ken,

As you point out, the AS contingent at the last two Runoffs at Laguna and Sears Point validate the trend of A Sedan dying out on the West Coast. If it were not for the addition of the Spec Mustangs into AS you would not have more than a few AS cars on the West Coast. For all intents and purposes AS is a dead class on the West Coast. You aren't going to see any growth in AS numbers; only decline. Once a class begins to decline in numbers in different areas of the country it is hard to bring it back. Momentum begets momentum...either up or down.

I guess I wasn't clear about our intentions with Muscle Car. The MC class is a San Francisco Regional only class based 90% on A Sedan rules circa 2018 prior to the latest round of cost increases. The MC class rules are formulated by a three person Board of Directors and are aimed toward keeping costs down (hence the 100 tread wear tire rule) and no continual cost creep in preparation allowances like AS has experienced (i.e., brakes, cams, etc).

The Prime Directive for the MC rules is to keep it simple and cheap (well, racing cheap that is) and encouraging for new drivers to join the class by building a new car, buying an existing MC car (two are for holds the MC track record at Sonoma; the other holds the lap record at Laguna and Thunderhill...they are each $12,000 including a new set of Maxxis 275/40/17 on new American rims) and third option of finding an old garaged AS, CMC or T2 car and bringing it up to spec.

As a result of this we have a new class that had only two cars in 2020 and has eight cars this year and twelve or more cars expected for 2021. It's too late for AS on a National level to grow countrywide...I expect it to continue to shrink in numbers..but regionally there is the opportunity for an AS based class to take root and thrive in various areas such as is now happening in three areas.

A good sign of things to come is that four new racers will be going to the SFR Drivers' School in January to join the MC class. Two of them are rescuing old AS cars, one is building their own and one is buying an existing car. A good trend all around.

I have an extra MC Camaro that is available for racers interested in MC and for people who have always wanted to race and are interested in MC. It is available for open track days at Laguna Seca at no charge. And it is available for rent at SFR races. Waterford Hills AS alumni Anton Savinov ran the rental Camaro at Laguna and set a new track record and ended up with a second and fourth in the weekend races. If anyone reading this has always wanted to race at Laguna, here's your in and stay at a Carmel B and B and have a blast at the track. And I guarantee you'll have fun.

PbFoot 07-06-2021 10:27 PM

American Sedan has a rich history in the SCCA and I'm proud to have been there for most of it.. The class has out lived many other classes within the SCCA, but as Richard eluded to all good things come to an end and AS may be in its twilight.

Three of the six SCCA conferences will probably only send 3-4 cars total to the RO's this year. AS appears to be a regional class that still has a national level standing. Best of luck to those true believers and I hope a renaissance is in the offing.

Tim White 07-07-2021 01:47 PM

There are a great many things I do not understand, the first being what happened in 2018 that made entry into the class more expensive? I also don't understand the idea that participation is down this year, from what I can see it is up slightly from 2019, I'll ignore last year. The average car count from 2019 was 3.2 where we are currently at 3.8 with a few races to go. There was a big drop in 2018 as 2017 averaged 4.3 and it fell to 3.4 in 2018. In today's market there is much more competition, when there were 40+ cars at the Runoffs there was no NASA. Oddly enough there has not been 40+ cars at the Runoffs since 2004. Since 2010 the average has been 21, it would be nice to exceed this.

ralong2 07-08-2021 04:44 PM

Robert and George Long first time Runoffs this year at Indy.

MarkMuddiman 07-12-2021 01:20 PM

I'm planning to go, if my collection of T5s last that long, or the TKX suddenly becomes available.
I have family in town that don't get much chance to see me race, so I'm pretty much obligated. Plus it's hard to turn down free room&board and a pool that I only have to share with a couple of dogs instead of screaming kids.

I'm hoping this time the logistics are better. 900 cars is way too many. Grouping us with T1 instead of GT2 should be much better. I'm hoping the false grid gets opened up so we can get in without overheating and get the back of the grid on the track before the front is starting their 2nd lap. And I'll certainly avoid the tight grass paddock spaces: no room for truck&trailer&car, and the aisles between were too narrow.

But be warned: if I can't get the car ready or break before the race, I've already been recruited for Tech. I might just be in the impound garage.

PamRichardson 07-12-2021 06:17 PM

Mark --

I hope you get to race, but, we would welcome you in Tech. I think it is good to have someone in the class knowing what to look at!

In any case, see you there! Pam Richardson

rx555 07-13-2021 07:08 PM

They just sent the email about reg. opening up tomorrow.
Mark (or anyone) I have a good T5 sitting here that I can't use. I can bring it along if someone wants it.
They still seem to think they'll get 900+ cars. Maybe they'll all be SRF and SM?

rx555 07-14-2021 02:45 AM

Here's a chart for entries. Looks like we need 39 to make "the cut."
There are 6 each entered yet at NJMP and Gingerman and none at Grattan. Houston is too far out to know and none entered yet for High Plains (there weren't any last time they ran there this year).
That means we need 27 entries at Indy. It's doable I suppose.

PbFoot 07-14-2021 09:20 AM

My guess is making "the cut" on the two year entries will mean nothing this year because it includes the 2020 COVID year. Highly likely that AS will exceed the 4 car per event ave for 2021. That said, in 2017 with the RO's at Indy, AS had a much better yearly event entry ave than 2021 will have.
In 2019, with the RO's at VIR, AS had an event entry ave entry below 4. AS class participation numbers will be interesting to follow over the next 2 years.
There are a number of classes that have worse numbers than AS and no class "so far" has lost their National status.

rx555 07-19-2021 02:39 AM

Looks like we already lost an entry. Was 18 yesterday and 17 today. I think it was Philip Waters.
I imagine John H. and Beth A. will sign up and I know Tim and Andy S. still have to register.
And their up to 11 AS at Gingerman. Should be fun.

Tim White 07-19-2021 11:00 AM

Back to 18, I registered.

PamRichardson 07-20-2021 09:03 AM

Tim --

Welcome to the race! I think you will have more fun driving!

We are up to 19. Let's get more entries!!!!

Looking like it will be a great and fun event. Whoomah!!!!


jimwheeler 07-22-2021 03:05 PM

Due to multiple reasons, too boring with which to burden you, I will be missing the Runoffs. I did not race last season, at all, for the first time since 1975 - because, well everyone knows the reason. This season, I was ready to rock, but racing is always an iffy proposition, and this year the iffy-s got me. Not sure about next year, as VIR is a monster tow, but I am keeping my options open. At Heartland, two weeks ago I had a great weekend with wins and records, but not like the old days. I will be 76 on the Runoffs weekend, and it is getting harder to do all the lugging and toting that is involved with this sport. What I need is a minion, who wants to race and will take entries, track time, fuel, tires and cash to take the physical burden. Like a lot of businesses, it is not easy to find that person. Anyone in MiDiv who wants to be a race car driver, bubba, do I have a deal for you.

PbFoot 07-22-2021 10:20 PM

Wheel, I hear you brother. In the past couple of years all of my race stuff feels like it weighs twice as much as in the past. My biggest negative for continuing with Club racing has been the tow. My shortest tow is 800 miles round trip and most are over 1000. I have been towing to races for 35 years and the traffic just keeps getting worse. I'm pretty beat by the time I get to the track. I have always been a one man band and unfortunately father time is catching up with me.

rx555 07-27-2021 06:08 AM

Up to 22 and I presume Heinricy will still sign up.
Anybody know what happened to Bryan Long? He was so fast there the first time. Also curious about some of last year's entrants who haven't signed up like Lubash, Regan, Wheaton, or West.
We do have quite a few from Cali this time, though, compared to last year.

And Jim, you might get more interest if you don't call them a minion :) Maybe try team mate?

Tim White 08-03-2021 10:58 AM

We've reached 25 entries. As far as the Runoffs class tracking we are down to needing 24. If all 25 entries show up then we will achieve the necessary number. There are also 3 more Majors, this doesn't seem to be an issue for next year. If we stay at 4.7 cars per event this year hopefully it puts us in a better position next year. Last year put us in a hole this year, ending 2020 at 3.7 cars per event.

PamRichardson 08-08-2021 05:29 PM

28 entries!
We now have 28 entries for Indy! More than 13 other SCCA classes!

Looking forward to seeing everyone there!

Pam Richardson

rx555 08-11-2021 12:55 AM

I was kinda hoping T1 would only get 12-ish cars. But 25 will make quali interesting watching mirrors if they're ten seconds difference on lap times.
I'll need to take quali a little more serious than I have in the past and try to get up to speed quicker rather than my normal wait til the last lap of the last session :)

rx555 08-24-2021 07:06 AM

Apparently they revised the Supps again on 8/9. Change was minimal. In rally, we can only put the Supps out once and any changes have to go in numbered bulletins. We shouldn't have to get 9 versions of them. Who would I make that suggestion to?

I did notice on another forum that the out lap for Quali is different from what we normally do. FCY means no passing which might catch somebody out.

5.17. Out Lap/Pace Lap Procedures:
5.17.1. Qualifying: For all qualifying sessions, the course will be Full Course Yellow on the out lap until Turn 10. Cars going considerably slower and holding up other cars may be subject to penalty. The Turn 10 flag station will display a green flag on the qualifying out lap to indicate the start of green course conditions. The full course will be green once the lead car passes start/finish. Scrubbing tires and impeding the progress of other drivers after Turn 10 on the out lap is considered blocking.

rx555 09-24-2021 01:35 AM

See everybody there next week. No test day for me and will get there Monday afternoon. Car is all ready. Had several withdrawals overall but we're still at 31 which I'm glad to see.

Mustang Alli 10-02-2021 09:51 AM

Runoffs Live on YouTube
You can watch the American Sedan race on YouTube today and chat there also. AS Race starts about 1:10 minutes in.
Spoiler: Someone wins and it’s an exciting finish.

Qualifying time indicate we could have a tight group up front. Be safe out there and have fun everyone:clap:

Allison Palitz
AS #82
‘87 Mustang

gtofastpontiac 10-10-2021 09:19 PM

finally have time to post my runoffs week. tuesday went out and had some misfiring seemed down on power, came in checked a few things nothing out of the ordinary, also my transmission kept popping out of 3rd so i had to hold it in for quali and race, do not reccomend. wednesday went out for quali and still felt down on power came in and pulled the spark plugs again. except 1 was missing the electrode tip, check the piston and everything looked good. put a new plug in and did a hardship lap, everything looked good after thinking it was just a manufacturing defect. the race start was interesting saw a bunch of brake lights and the center lane was open so i went for it was able to gain 9 positions before turn 1, trying to race one handed was a challenge. on lap 5 went into turn 1 and hit the brakes and my rear caliper locked up, which pretty much ended my race. will be looking to replace the stock rears with something better.

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