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View Full Version : Nelson Ledges A/S Results


David Pintaric
05-27-2007, 03:54 PM
Hey guys, I am probably the first one from our race group home (40 minute drive), so I thought I pass on the results from today:

1. Tom Sloe (Mustang) 1:12.391
2. John Heinricy (Firebird) 1:13.471
3. Monte Cowles (Mustang) 1:13.902
4. Scott Lane (Mustang) 1:14.221
5. John Lechner (Mustang) 1:14.256
6. Ken McVicker (Camaro) 1:14.961
7. Ron LeBaron (Camaro) 1:15.439
8. Jim Pracker (Mustang) 1:22.696 (2nd lap crash & DNF)

jimwheeler
05-27-2007, 05:15 PM
Dave,
Thanks for the update. Looks like a pretty good group.
wheel

t4wallace
05-29-2007, 10:22 AM
Thanks Dave.

If I read this correctly, Tom lowered his record (set last year) by .4 sec.

Looks like John needs to spend more time on his set up.

smithpr
05-29-2007, 12:13 PM
Tom:

Based on Mylaps.com is was a great race. If I read it right Tom won by .6 seconds and Jerry was about 5.0 seconds back. Besides set up John can also work on his driving I guess.:laughing:

I am looking forward to heading up to MidO on Sunday to watch the A/S race.

Philip

David Pintaric
05-29-2007, 01:13 PM
Tom:

Based on Mylaps.com is was a great race. If I read it right Tom won by .6 seconds and Jerry was about 5.0 seconds back. Besides set up John can also work on his driving I guess.:laughing:

I am looking forward to heading up to MidO on Sunday to watch the A/S race.

Philip

Phil,

Look me up at Mid Ohio.

I understand it was a very good race. I was a bit busy at the time to watch...:laughing:

I will say Tom's yellow Mustang sure goes good in a straight line. In Saturday's A.M. session I got the "point by" by him exiting the Carousel and could not pull on him. Then we had a restart after a 3 lap FCY and he thought I missed a shift and almost goosed me. No, I didn't miss a shift...Kudos to his engine builder.

Ted Johnson
05-29-2007, 01:29 PM
Phil,

Look me up at Mid Ohio.

I understand it was a very good race. I was a bit busy at the time to watch...:laughing:

I will say Tom's yellow Mustang sure goes good in a straight line. In Saturday's A.M. session I got the "point by" by him exiting the Carousel and could not pull on him. Then we had a restart after a 3 lap FCY and he thought I missed a shift and almost goosed me. No, I didn't miss a shift...Kudos to his engine builder.

Dave,

What does a prepped t-1 corvette make for hp? Supposed to have 405 before any tweeking correct? You don't have cats or mufflers in t1 either do you? How much power increase did that change give to t1 corvettes?

Just curious.

Ted

t4wallace
05-29-2007, 01:43 PM
Tom:

Based on Mylaps.com is was a great race.
What does mylaps have it titled as? I tries searching a couple different ways and could not find. Pilot error I'm sure.

jimwheeler
05-29-2007, 01:47 PM
The best way is to go to nelson ledges and then from there.
wheel

t4wallace
05-29-2007, 01:51 PM
Thanks Wheel.

I found it by searching by driver...

BTW: Phil said Jerry finished 5 secs. back, but that was actually Monte.

jimwheeler
05-29-2007, 02:04 PM
Jerry is Monte's evil twin from the other parallel universe.
wheel

t4wallace
05-29-2007, 03:10 PM
Jerry is Monte's evil twin from the other parallel universe.
wheel
Is he the one that runs his car on sh!t sandwiches?

David Pintaric
05-29-2007, 03:14 PM
Dave,

What does a prepped t-1 corvette make for hp? Supposed to have 405 before any tweeking correct? You don't have cats or mufflers in t1 either do you? How much power increase did that change give to t1 corvettes?

Just curious.

Ted

I understand the top T1 Vettes are making between 380 & 385 RWHP and can weigh as little as 3280 lbs. I drive a Viper, however. If you promise not to tell anyone, my car makes 420 RWHP and weighs 3700 lbs.

jkopp
05-29-2007, 03:48 PM
If you promise not to tell anyone, my car makes 420 RWHP and weighs 3700 lbs.

Uh oh, now you're in trouble. Guess who's watching ;).

-Kopp

BTW - Nice job this past weekend!

smithpr
05-29-2007, 03:50 PM
Sorry Monte I can't keep all you east coast guys straight.

Philip

Ted Johnson
05-29-2007, 04:13 PM
Uh oh, now you're in trouble. Guess who's watching ;).

-Kopp

BTW - Nice job this past weekend!


Time to work on Mikes setup Jeff...

jkopp
05-29-2007, 05:06 PM
Time to work on Mikes setup Jeff...

Well, in all fairness, David does have another 420lbs. to deal with. On the other hand, I guess that's the point you're trying to make :D.

SedanMan
05-29-2007, 05:09 PM
I will say Tom's yellow Mustang sure goes good in a straight line. In Saturday's A.M. session I got the "point by" by him exiting the Carousel and could not pull on him. Then we had a restart after a 3 lap FCY and he thought I missed a shift and almost goosed me. No, I didn't miss a shift...Kudos to his engine builder.

I understand the top T1 Vettes are making between 380 & 385 RWHP and can weigh as little as 3280 lbs. I drive a Viper, however. If you promise not to tell anyone, my car makes 420 RWHP and weighs 3700 lbs.Ok, there could be a dozen disclaimers as to why this and why that but since we have some real world race track data dangling in front of us let's do some quick math.....I haven't had a good laugh all day till now.

From David's persepctive it sounds like Tom's Mustang was at least as fast when it came to a 'drag race' so let's say that the weight/horsepower was equal between Tom's Mustang and David's Viper.

The T1 Viper weighs 3700 lb and has 420 rwhp. If Tom's Mustang was at minimum weight of 3380 lb, we can calculate his rwhp as follows:
(3380 lb) x (420 hp) / (3700 lb) = 384 Mustang rwhp

As if this isn't funny enough, use a typical 15% powertrain loss to determine flywheel horsepower and you get:
(384) / (.85) = 451 Mustang flywheel horsepower

Now that's funny! :laughing:

Sorry, got to go read another chapter in my How To Drive book before I go work on my car's setup.....

(and remember, this is with the NEW higher weight for the Mustang....but I'm sure we're not getting the whole picture because we all know there's no way a Mustang could make this much power)

Jerry Post
05-29-2007, 06:25 PM
It is clear, the 100 pounds added to the Mustangs is not near enough. An average Mustang with an average driver is kicking JH's butt.

socalta
05-29-2007, 07:10 PM
An average Mustang with an average driver

ouch.......

t4wallace
05-29-2007, 07:19 PM
It is clear, the 100 pounds added to the Mustangs is not near enough. An average Mustang with an average driver is kicking JH's butt.
I hear you Jerry and agree that 100 lbs. was not enough and nothing more than a short term band aid. That might have split the difference. Maybe.

But the #'s being put up by Sloe would indicate that car/driver combo is not average. Fact is, that combo owns many track records in the CD/GL division and was on pole at the Runoffs last year. John ran near what he ran there in 06, and Sloe went .4 faster. That makes me scratch my head since the Mustangs are heavier, but shows that combo is not slowing down with the change. At least at this horsepower-is-king track. And no, I'm not overlooking the margin of victory in this instance. I would be curious to how the caution influenced the outcome (if at all).

And, SedanMan's afternoon math class says the horsepower in that car is WELL ABOVE AVERAGE. Maybe the benchmark. Something clear to anyone running in CD/GL.

So, based on what we've seen with the weight change (and the Topeka layout getting a revision) GM'rs should plan on spending even more time on set up and driver ability. Of course, I could be proven wrong. Sure hope so.

David Pintaric
05-29-2007, 10:26 PM
You know guys, I wasn't trying to start an arguement...I am trying hard enough to stay out of one in the T1 world; don't need to get entangled in your's.

jkopp
05-30-2007, 12:42 AM
You know guys, I wasn't trying to start an arguement...I am trying hard enough to stay out of one in the T1 world; don't need to get entangled in your's.

You're fine David and certainly didn't mean to fuel any fires. Don't worry about the T1 scene. You've earned your success. Us AS folks we'll get are troubles worked out and get back to racing soon enough ;). We (Mike and I) look forward to seeing you on track soon! :thumbsup:

BMiller
05-30-2007, 07:56 AM
It is clear, the 100 pounds added to the Mustangs is not near enough. An average Mustang with an average driver is kicking JH's butt.

Come on guys, we've been into the weight rule change a grand total of 30 days (4 race weekends, and doubtful a race each weekend). Can we at least give it a full season before getting our britches in a bind? I don't think the small handful of races run the past 4 weeks is statistically significant. Geez. :rolleyes:

t4wallace
05-30-2007, 01:40 PM
You know guys, I wasn't trying to start an arguement...I am trying hard enough to stay out of one in the T1 world; don't need to get entangled in your's.
You didn't start an argument David. This has been ongoing discussion for some time. Appreciate your taking the time and hope this doesn't discourage you from sharing again. BTW -- All you "did" was state something obvious (to anyone that's raced against it) about the yellow mustang.

Come on guys, we've been into the weight rule change a grand total of 30 days (4 race weekends, and doubtful a race each weekend). Can we at least give it a full season before getting our britches in a bind? I don't think the small handful of races run the past 4 weeks is statistically significant. Geez. :rolleyes:
Sorry if the sarcasm made it seem like my hanes were in a wad, but they're not. The results are about what I expected when it comes to races run on CD/GL tracks. The performance of Sloe is, in fact, a very reliable measuring stick. The 100 lbs. closes the hp/wt. gap but it's not "the fix" and don't believe it was ever advertised to be.

I can see why you would say we should wait the year Bill, but my opinion is based on the last three+ years of performance at the Runoffs, with the addition of the initial results from the last 4 race weekends. I'm not in the Ford camp, obviously, but I did not expect the weight addition to make that much of a difference. And, so far, it has not.

I again applaud the efforts it took to get a change made (should have said that in the last post). I'm all for watching for the year, because it will make a difference. Just how much is the part I'm skeptical about. That's not whining, just stating the (un)obvious.

Andy Jones
05-31-2007, 12:14 AM
The performance of Sloe is, in fact, a very reliable measuring stick.


In what way?

aexracer14
05-31-2007, 09:28 AM
Bear in mind add100# on the right side a Mustang will ad a few tenths at Nelson. Old trick.

t4wallace
05-31-2007, 10:01 AM
In what way?
That he went as fast/faster with the 100 lbs. Or conversely, the weight did not slow him down at all (and yes I understand the 100 lbs. making the car faster under certain conditions). Kris Smith's performance at GingerMan and Grattan is also a very reliable measuring stick.

It was also a response to Jerry's initial "average car" comment.

Bear in mind add100# on the right side a Mustang will ad a few tenths at Nelson. Old trick.
If it's an old trick, then I would assume Tom was already doing it prior to this year. He's been racing long enough at Nelson to know that. Unless the additional 100 proved to be a diminishing return.

EDIT: Corrected/added reference to Smith to add GingerMan.

koscieldrk
05-31-2007, 10:35 AM
Gingerman Qualifying: Kris Smith Mustang
Grattan Qualifying: Tom Toth Camero
Blackhawk Qualifying: Tom Toth Camero
Nelson Qualifying: Tom Sloe Mustang

Looks like it's pretty even here. If you can qualify as fast or faster I don't see any disavantage.

t4wallace
05-31-2007, 01:16 PM
Looks like it's pretty even here. If you can qualify as fast or faster I don't see any disavantage.
Dweine, have you ever tried to pass a car (for position) in the same class that has 20-30 more horsepower than you? Wait, you raced a Ford. I get what you're saying, but you're making a very superficial statement. Speaking of superficial, where you claim "halvesies" Ford has won 3 out of 4. But it's early in the season. Sarcasm in full effect. There is a post somewhere about Ford dominating CenDiv in wins for a few years now. I haven't looked, but I'm guessing it's in relation to the time Ford got the block rule. Yeah, yeah, I know. GM keeps winning the whole thing.

Back to the contention all is even. Qualifying could represent the fastest ultimate lap and is an accepted measure by some. I still maintain the fastest race lap is a more suitable measure. Yes, Q time is a usable tool, but not totally reflective of the entire package/capability of a given car/driver. We need to look at the whole picture here. Plus, what I see so far is Fords are going faster in races than in qualifying and always measurably faster than GM when it really matters: in the race.

So let's take an H.D. look at the referenced race weekends so far:
GingerMan
Smith broke a Ford track record (McDermid) set WAYYY back in 2000 and raced at the track record. No strong GM car to keep him honest.
Race winner: Ford.

Grattan
2006 Ford-owned (Sloe) track record of 26.1 wasn't threatened.
GM (Toth) had pole over Ford (Smith) by .032 at a 27.267
Fast race lap of 26.9 was advantage Ford (Smith) by .7 secs. Note the race lap was faster than qualifying and that Hosni and Sloe were absent.
Race winner: Ford.

Blackhawk
No car was anywhere near the 17.8 record set by Ford (Von Kluge) in 06.
While qualifying did go to a GM (Toth) with a healthy .9 advantage over Ford (Fred H.), a Ford (Fred) set the fast race lap at a 19.76 to the GM fast lap of 19.87 (Doll). Trend Alert: a Ford goes faster in the race (and marginally faster than GM) than in qualifying. But again, still 2 seconds shy of a Ford owned track record set just last year. Yes, I get that conditions might have played a role, but no strong Fords (Von Kluge, Hosni or McDermid) were at the event, maybe making the times suspect, but not the differential.
Race winner: GM.

Nelson
Ford (Sloe) resets track record, out qualifies GM (Heinricy) by .6 and out races GM (JH) by over 1 second. And, imagine this, Ford runs faster in the race than in qualifying. My only caveat here is: why was the M.O.V. as close as it was? Race management? Power leaking out of the motor? We may never know.
Race winner: Ford.

A NOTE ABOUT TRACK RECORDS: Some tracks keep separate times for Qual and Race. I'm using what's currently posted on the sites as reference.

There is little talent required (in my opinion) in using a HP advantage to maintain lap times/track position. Before the brake upgrade, a GM would run out of brakes and then tires trying to get around a Ford. Runoff composite lap time comparisons support this where the Ford lap time advantage would grow from Qual to Race. The HP never really does fade does it? The new brakes will not close this gap, since a Ford guy can merrily mash the pedal on the right with no fear of having to whoa that thing the entire race.

Back on topic: Tom Sloe won Nelson and reset his track record. Driving a Ford.

KW78
05-31-2007, 08:54 PM
You know guys, I wasn't trying to start an arguement...I am trying hard enough to stay out of one in the T1 world; don't need to get entangled in your's.

No worries David, this one gets credited to "Whirlpool Ted" Johnson... You see, the Spin Zone is like the perfect storm, just needs a catalyst to get going... The "Soyousayamustangcanbeataviperwithmotor" comment was just right....

BTW, i would love to drag race you for money, from any speed to any speed or for any given length of road..... as long as we get to switch cars first....

Kyle

Ted Johnson
05-31-2007, 10:30 PM
No worries David, this one gets credited to "Whirlpool Ted" Johnson... You see, the Spin Zone is like the perfect storm, just needs a catalyst to get going... The "Soyousayamustangcanbeataviperwithmotor" comment was just right....

BTW, i would love to drag race you for money, from any speed to any speed or for any given length of road..... as long as we get to switch cars first....

Kyle


Actually Kyle, If you go back and re read my question to David, its original intent was to see how much HP the vettes gained without cats and mufflers. Since I got to sit my butt in a t1 vette for a few laps a couple weeks ago. They sure sound sweet without cats and mufflers and pull very strong.. I thought David still raced a vette. I had no clue at that point he was racing a viper. I'm happy he responded with his hp figures because I was amazed at MAM watching the start with Jim Lynch (t1 viper driver). I had two friends in GT1 cars ahead of him that couldn't believe how hard that viper pulled on the start. Right on their bumper at the first corner. I can see how the question sparked an ongoing debate though. David, we have been talking about gm/ford hp disparity for awhile and you did nothing to get this debate fired up.

Kyle likes to wear his (STP) hat, which stands for STIR THE POT and we love to jab at each other. Even so, you'll probably find him at the Big Kahuna trailer at HPT next week with me pouring him margaritas. So if that tells you anything? Of course Wheel will be at his paddock pouring ball bearings down his motor..:p

And now back to you Kyle...:ciao: Everyone took note of the (anotherchevydominatedtrackshouldafordevenshowup) comment in a previous thread. Talk about a catalyst for debate. We graciously handed you a well deserved misplaced track record at MAM. We give you good blocks, good cranks, margaritas, more cam lift, better heads, and now track records?? SHEESH we can only give so much... :thumbsup:

Now if you will excuse me I must go work on my setup....

jimwheeler
05-31-2007, 10:45 PM
Yeah, it's all ball bearings nowadays. That's the way to fix a fetzer valve.

Andy Jones
05-31-2007, 11:18 PM
Don't forget the 3n1 oil.

KW78
06-01-2007, 01:51 PM
Kyle likes to wear his (STP) hat, which stands for STIR THE POT and we love to jab at each other. Even so, you'll probably find him at the Big Kahuna trailer at HPT next week with me pouring him margaritas. So if that tells you anything? Of course Wheel will be at his paddock pouring ball bearings down his motor..:p


Now actually Ted, the (STP) hat, i told you, stands for STOP THE PARANOIA.:ciao:
And did Wheel go to Salt Lake recently? Someone got the ball bearing thing right, so the track record at MMP is still open... I couldn't even beat... the miatas.... ended up having to drive the pace car. :censored: :censored: :censored: The atlantics reported a good speed start finally though...


We give you good blocks, good cranks, margaritas, more cam lift, better heads, and now track records?? SHEESH we can only give so much... :thumbsup:



Actually that was heavy blocks, heavy cranks, and GOOD margaritas! But FINALLY, we got given weight, which appears to make the Mustang faster according to this thread, so MAYBE we can finally winthechevydominatedrunoffsracethatistheonethatrea llycounts.....


Now if you will excuse me I must go work on my setup....

Good job, that is a fabulous idea.... stay away from those results archives... Drink recipe books are good tho...