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smithpr
11-18-2006, 12:01 PM
Guys:

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/06-runtraps-AS.pdf

The Runoff trap speeds are posted.

Guess how many GM cars are in the top 30 fasted trap speeds?

One.

Guess who?

Let the debate continue. However, it does seem that Fords overall are faster then GMs.

Philip
#54 A/S

socalta
11-18-2006, 12:30 PM
no .. no way ... I don't believe it ... the numbers are made up .. I wont believe it until I see it on SCCA letterhead.. signed and stamped with a seal...
this is a farse.... more of that :censored: GM conspiracy talk I tell ya .. just more of it ....

its not true I tell you .. its not true.....

KW78
11-18-2006, 07:34 PM
Guys:


Guess how many GM cars are in the top 30 fasted trap speeds?




:D But Potential-wise, it appears a GM package can cover the entire Mustang field, except one.. :D

(couldn't resist)

The real question I wanted to ask everyone, do we know where this taken and how? I presume T-ponder loops because of how good the data is. Is this at S/F, or corner Alpha?

jimwheeler
11-18-2006, 07:38 PM
Damn Kyle, I've seen some never-say-die guys in my long and checkered career, but you are the neverest.
wheel

Ted Johnson
11-18-2006, 09:37 PM
Some of these numbers seem odd. Formula mazda numbers in the 138 mph range? Formula Atlantic 115 mph range? GT1 140mph range? Since when can a formula mazda pull with a gt1 car? Am I missing something? It says its measured between start/finish to turn alpha.

92AS
11-18-2006, 11:03 PM
Rain, maybe?

smithpr
11-19-2006, 01:52 PM
Guys:

The more I think about this the more I want a Ford.

It looks like it doesn't take much to get a fast Ford. West has one of the fastest cars. In addition, there are a number of Fast Fords and the money and effort doesn't seem to matter. Some of the guys that talk about spending the most are not any faster then some of the other Fords.

I know Sloe has a well developed car and it looks like the rest of the Ford guys need to step up the program.

This data shows that that it is almost impossible to get a fast GM. Based on the speed numbers I should do not support any rule changes. The GM guys just need to step it up. I decided I am going to be just like the Ford guys. No changes. I have a very fast GM and I sure do not want other cars as fast as mine.:D

If the GMs handle so much better they would carry the corner exit speed down the straight and at 114 mph the speed would be the same.

As Kyle says, just drive better guys.:ciao:

Let the class die who cares. If this data doesn't prove that you are a fool to build a GM I do not know what would.

Jerry Post is right. GM should stay home and save their stuff until the rules change.

Philip

What would it take to fix this?

Philip

KW78
11-19-2006, 05:16 PM
Damn Kyle, I've seen some never-say-die guys in my long and checkered career, but you are the neverest.
wheel
Well Wheel, Tis the season for optimism! Someone please tell Philip that and buy him a beer for me..:cheers:

Some things I noticed about the trap speeds:

Harvey was fast in a straight line, but was off pace a bit on the rest of the lap. Harvey Duplicated Ed H. fast speed, but typically the two cars were 4-5 sec. appart in lap times.

Only 3 laps in the race were in the 54's (Sloe (1) and Lavign (2)).

15 laps in the race were in the 55's. These were among 5 different cars; Hosni, Lavign, Sloe in fords; Phillip and Heinrocket in GMs. Lavign had the most and presumably the clearest track.

The highest trap speed of the event, by Sloe, was on his personal slowest lap (a 57.3) (other than in lap).

Lap times vs. trap speeds relationship seems all over the board.

Of the top six finishers on track (3 Ford, 3 GM)(tech not withstanding), 5 had best trap speeds ranging 114.02 to 113.07, and then there was JH with 111.05..:confused:

Just a few observations...

Kyle

SedanMan
11-20-2006, 11:54 AM
Some things I noticed about the trap speeds:Some possible conclusions about trap speeds (although I'm sure you'll correct me Kyle ;) ):

Harvey was fast in a straight line, but was off pace a bit on the rest of the lap. Harvey Duplicated Ed H. fast speed, but typically the two cars were 4-5 sec. appart in lap times.Wouldn't this indicate that even if you can't manage a high corner speed (including the corner leading onto the straight where the trap speed was measured) when your car makes more horsepower than other cars you still end up with higher speeds than the lower horsepower cars? Put another way, Harvey's Ford had one of the highest trap speeds even though his lap times were slow compared to the 12 people that finished ahead of him in the race and the 22 people that outqualified him.

Only 3 laps in the race were in the 54's (Sloe (1) and Lavign (2)). The only cars in the 54's were Mustangs.

The highest trap speed of the event, by Sloe, was on his personal slowest lap (a 57.3) (other than in lap).Again, if you have the horsepower you'll have a high trap speed, even if you're off in a corner or two on any given lap.

Lap times vs. trap speeds relationship seems all over the board.Lap times are a function of driver ability whereas trap speeds are more of a function of car horsepower (anyone can mash their foot on the gas pedal at the beginning of a straight).

Of the top six finishers on track (3 Ford, 3 GM)(tech not withstanding), 5 had best trap speeds ranging 114.02 to 113.07, and then there was JH with 111.05..:confused:Once again, even if your car (Heinricy's) has lower trap speeds, meaning less horsepower, if the higher horsepower cars in front of you drive off track, break, or get DQ'd then it's still possible to inherit a win, even if your car lacks the potential to drive to the front and take the win.

Which is the basis for the main question that GM car owners are asking themselves these days, especially about attending the Runoffs......"How much time and money am I willing to devote to a race in which the only chance I have of winning is if all the top Fords have mechanical problems or all the top Ford drivers make a lot of driving mistakes?"

This is just one more set of data that supports what the GM folks have been saying for a while now. Namely, Fords make more horsepower and when combined with good driving and car setup then the Ford potential is higher than the GM potential. (assuming GM drivers and Ford drivers are about equal in skill level and car prep ability level....but of course Kyle, you think if the GM guys including Heinricy would learn to drive and set up cars as well as the Ford guys that then the GMs would be beating the Fords. Other than yourself, I wonder how many other people in the AS community (including Heinricy) believe this to be true.....
:cheers:

t4wallace
11-20-2006, 01:14 PM
Well Wheel, Tis the season for optimism! Someone please tell Philip that and buy him a beer for me..:cheers:
There is not one thing that you have posted here Kyle that gives any GM'r optimism. Especially a 3rd gen. And there is nothing in the way of POTENTIAL (empahsis for Kyle) that should give a GM'r optimism either. I have heard your position (GM should have hope b/c a GM won, Wheel isn't tapping the potential of his rig and we all have $4995 to spend on a trip to Bondurant). The trap speeds are just more in the way of data that supports the Ford bias in the rules, especially under the hood. This isn't pessimism Kyle, it's factual data that supports the OPINIONS of many. Ford drivers inlcuded when spoken to outside the realm of public forum.

Harvey was fast in a straight line, but was off pace a bit on the rest of the lap. Harvey Duplicated Ed H. fast speed, but typically the two cars were 4-5 sec. apart in lap times.
There is nothing more frustrating in CenDiv than to be driving a GM and come up on a Ford that you're 1-2 sec./lap faster than and get parked there since you are down 30-40 hp. Or, you can try sailing it in there in the braking zone and hope they were taught to share as children.

Only 3 laps in the race were in the 54's (Sloe (1) and Lavign (2)). OPTIMISM would have at least one GM lap in this rarified air.

15 laps in the race were in the 55's. These were among 5 different cars; Hosni, Lavign, Sloe in fords; Phillip and Heinrocket in GMs. Lavign had the most and presumably the clearest track.

The highest trap speed of the event, by Sloe, was on his personal slowest lap (a 57.3) (other than in lap).
By my count, there were 19 laps that were sub-56.
Laps that Heinricy ran in the 55's: 1
Other GM laps in the sub-56 category: 1 by P. Smith for a total of 2.

The remaining number of laps faster than a 56 run by a Ford: 16

That's certainly optimistic. If I'm on crack.

Lap times vs. trap speeds relationship seems all over the board.
This just in. Horsepower and lap times are not statistically significant. You have posted the reasons why in other places.

Of the top six finishers on track (3 Ford, 3 GM)(tech not withstanding), 5 had best trap speeds ranging 114.02 to 113.07, and then there was JH with 111.05..:confused:
Let me help you here: There is a :censored: horsepower (or horsepower to weight) disparity.

I have watched enough Fords yank me 4 cars at MidO (back straight) to know this to be fact. And please don't reply with the whole "run off the corner" thing. I'll send you video of how a car can have a three car-length run coming out of 3 at Road America and still loose 5 lengths by the braking zone going into 5. This phenomenon repeats itself 3 times per lap. And this would be in the 3rd gen GM that is consistently in the top 5 nationally since 03. Included in this footage would be a driver earning his keep in the braking zone and the corners to combat the driving ability of mashing the pedal on the right.

The data does not support parity no matter how you try to spin it Kyle. And a one-lap flyer on A's is not enough data to measure potential and doesn't support your position anyway.

I'd love to see you and Ed develop a GM and prove that we're wrong. At least you'll have put your money where your idea of potential is.

Too bad Spec Miata was the first to the SM stickers...

KW78
11-20-2006, 02:39 PM
This is all fine to talk about, but I believe we need F1-like data and a scientific, not speculative, approach to analyzing the situation. We (racers) can't even get flow numbers out there...

The trends I think are worth noting (on the topic of car parity) come from looking at qualifying efforts, where everyone is more likely to have approached their particular 100% lap of the event, and the trap speeds as applied to the field. Obviously I think it would be better to have trap speeds in qualifying...

The trends I see, especially if you focus on or around the median of the top ten, is that horsepower (assumed strait line relationship to the trap speeds) isn't the brunt of the answer to faster lap times. You see this comparing GM to GM, and Ford to Ford. Ex: Wheel and Philip were very close in qualifying, but Philip appears to have power on Wheel. Ex: Harvey and Hosni appear to have roughly equal horsepower, but hosni has lap time on Harvey. The differences aren't from only 1 or 2 items, but the whole package. In these 2 examples, the difference isn't in rules of the potential engine builds..... So when comparing Ford vs GM (which many similar examples are there, pick trap speeds and look at the range of times, or find similar times and look at the wide range of trap speed) are the most significant disparities really anchored in the engine department?

If the most significant disparities are not in the engine department, is a new engine package the magic bullet for the class?

Wheel says I have a never-say-die attitude towards <this>.. I would define <this> as passion for a great class with great people in it, and the GM camp is a big part of that, and I would hate to lose anyone from AS because people make the sweeping conclusion that it is hopeless to run this class. I just don't think the data and experiences I've seen support that conclusion.

Cheers:cheers:
Kyle

smithpr
11-20-2006, 03:48 PM
The new picture really sums up the issue in A/S. The fast cars are all Fords.

Thanks for the pic Kyle.:cheers:

Guys, if you want to race a GM in A/S you can still have fun, learn about the car, learn to drive and race but unless something happens with the rules or the Fords do what they did this year you will not win. Sure if all the Fords drive off the track, get DQ', or break a GM can win.

As Kyle points out there takes a lot of luck to win the runoffs and the fastest car does not always win. He should know.

This is the best class in SCCA the rules just need to be equalized.

Philip

Talladega
11-20-2006, 04:00 PM
Have a National race at the Drag strip?
And see what is in the top 10.
If the GMs handle so well comming off corners and were not down on power,,,,
Than why such a diffrent in trap speeds?

Just one big circle,,,,here in A/S.
T

btucker
11-20-2006, 04:23 PM
Kyle, if you were able to turn laps within a second or so of the pacesetter but were down several mph to the pacesetter what part of the car would you suspect to be the problem? BT

BMiller
11-20-2006, 05:02 PM
STOP ALREADY! :censored: .. This is nothing but entropy (look it up in Websters). 2007 solution (too late likely):
1. add .020" lift for GMs
2. add 100# to all Fords

Let's go racing. :thumbsup:

Talladega
11-20-2006, 05:08 PM
.020 more lift will get you about 3HP.
T

Tim White
11-20-2006, 05:43 PM
Why add weight all Fords? I can understand the 94 and up but what has a fox body stang done?

Out of curiosity I took just the fastest time from each driver, here is what I got:

No. Name MPH Lap Gap Lap Time Elapsed Time
1 7 Tom Sloe 115.96 8 00:01.1 01:57.3 15:30.9
6 54 Philip Smith 114.21 2 00:00.6 01:56.4 04:02.5
11 17 Ed Hosni 114.02 2 00:00.3 01:55.8 04:01.1
10 51 Tom Ellis 114.02 2 00:00.7 04:05.2
8 60 Harvey West 114.02 2 00:00.5 02:01.8 04:18.6
12 24 Andy McDermid 113.83 3 00:00.2 01:56.3 05:57.2
15 42 Michael Lavigne 113.83 7 00:01.0 01:55.0 13:34.5
28 77 Jason Von Kluge 113.45 1 00:01.1 02:08.4
32 20 Jim Wheeler 113.26 1 00:00.5 02:03.4
37 3 Bill Schepergerdes 113.07 1 00:00.6 02:06.7
61 99 Ted Johnson 112.51 15 00:00.4 01:57.5 29:43.4
106 15 Steve Hynes 111.23 1 00:00.5 02:14.7
105 57 Tom Himes 111.23 1 00:00.5 02:09.2
122 28 Monte Cowles 111.05 1 00:00.6 02:07.3
119 36 Jeff Kopp 111.05 1 00:00.4 02:12.4
121 47 Jim Pracker 111.05 2 00:00.9 02:01.8 04:18.1
123 58 John Heinricy 111.05 1 00:00.6 02:05.9
162 23 Brian Doll 110.15 2 00:00.1 01:58.8 04:08.8
186 38 Thomas Toth 109.27 15 00:04.7 01:58.6 29:52.8
210 4 Bill Tucker 108.74 1 00:01.1 02:12.0
218 76 Kevin Youngers 108.57 1 00:01.0 02:13.3
222 22 Fred Hetherwick 108.4 2 00:02.4 02:03.0 04:17.3
257 27 Eric Ritchie 107.54 2 00:01.2 01:59.1 04:10.0

KW78
11-21-2006, 12:09 AM
STOP ALREADY! :censored: .. This is nothing but entropy (look it up in Websters). 2007 solution (too late likely):
1. add .020" lift for GMs
2. add 100# to all Fords

Let's go racing. :thumbsup:

Entropy: Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. American Heritage dictionary

I am worried about this too, so we should put the debate down and go racing..... after this post.:laughing:


The new picture really sums up the issue in A/S. The fast cars are all Fords.

Thanks for the pic Kyle.:cheers:


Yeah, I knew that was coming :rolleyes: Geez, 1 picture without that blue 4th gen in the lead (the eventual winner I might add), and you go for the jugular....:D


Seriously, I just want to add to my take on the situation, and then break the soap box into pieces after this. :cheers:

I think we mostly agree on:


ASedan is nearly as good a class as there is.
ASedan rules are pretty close (not that many changes away) to a great rule set.
ASedan comradere is pretty great. Though we have a spirited debate here, we'd all loan each other our spares and a beer (or Marg.)
Our driver talent runs pretty deep, considering the Amatuer nature of the club

smithpr
11-21-2006, 08:14 AM
Kyle well said.

I agree.

Now if I can just get the CRB to allow the set of Fully Ported GM Fast Burn Aluminum heads that Flow 310 CFM at .550 that I have sitting around to go with my 1050 CFM Dominator. I might have a chance. Kyle how about supporting this.:laughing:

Philip

KW78
11-21-2006, 11:13 AM
Kyle well said.

I agree.

Now if I can just get the CRB to allow the set of Fully Ported GM Fast Burn Aluminum heads that Flow 310 CFM at .550 that I have sitting around to go with my 1050 CFM Dominator. I might have a chance. Kyle how about supporting this.:laughing:

Philip

In the spirit of give and take, Ok ok. BUT, you have to buy your trannys the same place, I get ABS, Wheel can't move his diff vent, and Bill has to stay on Kumho's..... And JH has to walk under a ladder to get into his car all season! :thumbsup:

t4wallace
11-21-2006, 11:26 AM
Why add weight all Fords? I can understand the 94 and up but what has a fox body stang done?

Out of curiosity I took just the fastest time from each driver, here is what I got:
Tim, I looked at what you posted and don't understand what you are tryinng to say. The following is from an earlier post.


By my count, there were 19 laps that were sub-56.
Laps that Heinricy ran in the 55's: 1
Other GM laps in the sub-56 category: 1 by P. Smith for a total of 2.

The remaining number of laps faster than a 56 run by a Ford: 16




I think we mostly agree on:


ASedan is nearly as good a class as there is.
ASedan rules are pretty close (not that many changes away) to a great rule set.
ASedan comradere is pretty great. Though we have a spirited debate here, we'd all loan each other our spares and a beer (or Marg.)
Our driver talent runs pretty deep, considering the Amatuer nature of the club

I agree with Kyle and have said this before. AS is DEEP in driver ability and prep (even outside the pro). It's more than ten if you go back over a three year period. That's one of the reasons that I'm not buying into if all the GM drivers go to Bondurant that it'll all be OK. What I can't agree with is your assessment as horsepower relates to lap time. How much driver ability does it take to mash the pedal on the right?

The increased lift, in my opinion, will not be enough. Will I take it (as a GM'r) to close the gap? I'm not stupid. Just opinionated and sometimes long-winded. We are close, and maybe the lift is it, I just doubt it. Especially in CenDiv where HP rules, and especially if you look under the surface at what actually transpired at Topeka. I'll call it a HP/wt issue. I'll also say that I'm not certain that I think they need to be equal. I just want to see the gap closer.

If we go off of potential, which has been the crux of this debate, then the potential was for a Ford slaughter. The data and on-track performance support this no matter how many say "Look at the Final Results and a GM won again".

Bill -- you get the door prize for the best word of the month. Nice. I just don't know if you were applying to those debating here, or the class itself. Or were you referring to it meaning chaos & disorganization?

The racing won't stop, but read the opinions of the GM'rs here. Other than Ross thinking that there might be some validity to running a GM, where’s the last positive post about running a GM? We’ve even had the “offer” to have well proven Ford guys tune a GM to show us that we don’t know what we’re doing. A scarier thought might be that the Mustangs still have room left to grow. I’m sure the 05 does.

We personally are not going to stop running GM. But, we are very concerned about whether or not we can have serious expectations of winning with the rules staying in homeostasis (my big word of the month).

jimwheeler
11-21-2006, 12:00 PM
In the spirit of give and take, Ok ok. BUT, you have to buy your trannys the same place, I get ABS, Wheel can't move his diff vent, and Bill has to stay on Kumho's..... And JH has to walk under a ladder to get into his car all season! :thumbsup:

That's what I love about this class. Kyle gives a little and takes a little. Good, open negotiations of future rule packages. How do we get tech to police JH and the ladder?

wheel

Ackjazz
11-21-2006, 01:22 PM
How do we get tech to police JH and the ladder?

wheel

That's simple...

OSHA. They will now be part of tech, going forward.

BMiller
11-21-2006, 01:24 PM
Bill -- you get the door prize for the best word of the month. Nice. I just don't know if you were applying to those debating here, or the class itself. Or were you referring to it meaning chaos & disorganization?

I was applying entropy to the debating, not the class which I love. My point was, let's get some simple rule change in for 2007, go racing, and evaluate.

t4wallace
11-21-2006, 02:37 PM
I was applying entropy to the debating, not the class which I love. My point was, let's get some simple rule change in for 2007, go racing, and evaluate.
Cool.

Agree on the rule change, then racing, and then a reevaluation.

jfaphoenix32
11-22-2006, 11:06 PM
This A sedan stuff is getting addicting... You guys bust your butts getting the cars ready, race like demons all week long and then do a marathon in the tech shed before a winner is declared...

Then write these long posts and debate it in excruciating detail!!! For weeks on end...

Wow... Talk about committed!!!

I think i will get Jh to hurt his back or something pulling his boat out of the water, convince brother tom to take up golf and hide the schedule from him for the runoffs... Then sell his latest GM car two weeks before the runoffs so he can't build another one...

Keep up the debate, its lots of fun to read.

Happy thanksgiving to everyone!!!