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ssjrrupp
10-14-2006, 06:27 PM
It looked like an interesting race. I was amazed at the lead the no. 7 and the no. 42 pulled out so quickly. Beyond this, they flat out left the field, lap after lap, until the no.7 fell off. At that point, the 42 continued to increase his lead every lap.

I half expected Heinricy and McDermid to get some of it back... but noone was able to close the gap.

I was truly bummed to see that J Wheeler spun. It looked as though he had an excellent chance at a podium until that happened.

Other perspectives?

Best Regards,
Justin Rupp
Milwaukee Region 96

Plum sloe
10-14-2006, 07:01 PM
Looks like the wheel may get that podium finish before it's all said and done.

socalta
10-14-2006, 08:11 PM
I too watched the show online ... Also bummed to see Wheel fall into some troubles ....he easily would have had second ... . Also glad to see a great showing by Bill S (Sedanman).. Tucker... Kopp...Johnson and the rest of the guys... great job...

Mark Allen
10-15-2006, 08:02 AM
Congrats to everyone for making it and running in the RO's. Great job by Mike on the win. Watching the lap chart he was incredibly consistent and nobody could touch his times. Looks like a lot of guys had great drives, congrats to all and condolences to those who either had mech breakdowns or went off course.

Additional congratulations to Jeff Robbins who even though he hung it up this year in AS, ran a great race and scored a podium in T1.

Mark

smithpr
10-15-2006, 11:38 AM
Here is my report.

First great race by the finishers. Mike made us look like the amatures that we are. John ran a great race and Bill was super. First run offs and a podium. He looked very good on the track.

Mike and Sloe just ran away from the field. I was in the 3rd place pack with a bunch of cars including Ed, John, Andy, Wheel. We were nose to tail for the hole time I was in the race. My T-10 exploded in turn 7 and I was done.

The start was pretty interesting. Kyle locked up his right front and I think lost the tire and made the start pretty interesting. We all made it through pretty clean even considering that.

The track was very slow. There just wasn't any grip so cars were everywhere. Hosni had a couple of moments as did Wheel. Andy missed the bus stop about every other lap and would put stuff on the track.

They were tearing down the first and second place cars last night.

Philip

ssjrrupp
10-15-2006, 01:30 PM
As per Provisional... looks like JH may be continue as the reigning champ. Frankly, with the margin of victory, I'm not surprised.

Provisional results (http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/AS%20Revised%20Provisional.pdf)

Looking at the results it'll be interesting to see how far the engine debate goes.

Best Regards,
Justin Rupp

Mark Allen
10-15-2006, 01:48 PM
Just now saw that. Anyone have any details?

Mark

socalta
10-15-2006, 02:18 PM
wow . wow wow I wonder what they found to make the DQ...

socalta
10-15-2006, 03:59 PM
I am also wondering why the first two and not the first three cars :confused:

Also ... do they just keeping tearing down cars until they find the top three legal cars to call the winners?

jkopp
10-15-2006, 05:12 PM
Well, looks like Bill got bounced too. What a bummer. These guys worked so hard. I hope it wasn't for any of the crazy little things we've heard so much talk about getting rid of lately. Sorry guys if it was.

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/AS%20Final.pdf

My race details:

My start was ok and I hung behind Ritchie and Tucker for a few laps before my 3rd link mount (body side) started to come loose. It got progressively worse as the race went on and I had to start taking it a little easier. Harvey caught and got around me but I was able to hang with him so I decided to settle in and do just that and see if I had anything for him towards the end of the race. I underestimated his braking point on the next lap at T1 and locked the right front up to keep from hitting him. I couldn't get it back and blew through turn one. After quick turn around and getting back on track, the right front was flat spotted so bad I thought it had come apart. I had to limp around the last several laps and I'm just glad I saw the checker. That was my goal for the week.

It was a lot of fun. It was good to see friends and meet new folks. Thanks to Chuck for the awesome chili and nice to meet you!

I now have to decide whether I want to spend the time and money it will take to have a chance at the top 10 next year let alone if I have the skill or not. I kinda think I like crew-chiefing better ;).

Thanks for a great week all! See you next year!

-Kopp

jimwheeler
10-15-2006, 07:57 PM
Just walked in from Topeka, crewed for an EP car and waited for the results to be final. First, my apologies to Jason for running into him on the straight. I don't remember it at all. I was semi-delerious the last 6 laps from gear lube fumes. He says the video shows I turned into him. Don't remember any of it. Everyone knows I don't race that way. Mike was busted for Holly problem and Bill had too much valve lift. (second hand hear-say, so don't take it to the bank).
I'll give my account tomorrow.
wheel

smithpr
10-15-2006, 09:16 PM
What a mess.

2 of the top three are DQ'd. Ed and Jason will hardly get a mention on TV, no Podium, no interviews. This rant is not about the people involved. I do not know Mike, I just met him on the grid. But I have spent a bunch of time talking with Bill and he is an straight up guy.

My issue is with the SCCA. They were taking SM's a part after every session. We get weight, rear camber checked, header size and a quick look at the carb. They need to do something so this does not happen again. Let's pump engines, check valve life, whistle for compression, and check carb. How hard is this? Get a paint pen out and mark stuff. New engine you get to start at the back of the pack.

Why not run a 427 SBC? 550 hp easy. Win the race. Get all the attention and exposure. Get DQ'd sunday and so what go home and do it again next year. They need to get serious with this.

This is not good for anyone. What about Sloe's fast lap? We will never know if that was done with a legal car. I hope that it was but no one will ever know.

Philip Smith
#54 A/S

socalta
10-15-2006, 09:48 PM
I've hung around Bill most of this season and he is straight up ... I am totally bummed for him because I know what he has gone through to prepare the car and get out there.... Its a long haul.....

I know he would not have knowingly done what was suggested in tech ....He is not going to be happy with the guy that did his engine..... Bill races clean and straight ...

Talladega
10-15-2006, 09:59 PM
Maybe
No Punt intended, but are you new to A/S?
SCCA is volintary, do we have people to tech each sesson?
And how important is our race?
Use to be Very Important,,,,
All top 3 were torn apart, than if one was found bad, 4th started tear down,
With spec cranks/blocks/heads/cams carbs,,,:thumbsup:
We or they should rule to mesure cam lift ,throttle bore/intake/valve size/
port volume/
Spec a 1 1/2 in plug in pan to check what rods/crank you have,,,
Seems i tried to have this done in 1998,,,,

in Q bring the top 6 in and one random, and wistle /pump/check valve lift,,,
SCCA no's it takes time and people, but what if , and its all what if.

JT

jkopp
10-15-2006, 10:05 PM
I agree with everything Philip said. With the things in AS that are an absolute like valve lift, header size, intakes, carbs, etc., why wouldn't they check more things of the sort in tech?

I believe that most racers would rather be completely legal than not. I also believe that when something is pointed out to these racers that they a) probably didn't realize they were non-compliant and b) are eager to correct it so that they are.

Again, good points Phil.

-Kopp

smithpr
10-15-2006, 10:45 PM
JT

They did it with Spec Miata why not A/S. Yes there were plenty of tech for SM but why not A/S. I am not talking about each national race but maybe sometime. At least this should be done at the runoffs.

Philip

Bill Richter
10-15-2006, 11:31 PM
What a mess.

2 of the top three are DQ'd. Ed and Jason will hardly get a mention on TV, no Podium, no interviews. This rant is not about the people involved. I do not know Mike, I just met him on the grid. But I have spent a bunch of time talking with Bill and he is an straight up guy.

My issue is with the SCCA. They were taking SM's a part after every session. We get weight, rear camber checked, header size and a quick look at the carb. They need to do something so this does not happen again. Let's pump engines, check valve life, whistle for compression, and check carb. How hard is this? Get a paint pen out and mark stuff. New engine you get to start at the back of the pack.

Why not run a 427 SBC? 550 hp easy. Win the race. Get all the attention and exposure. Get DQ'd sunday and so what go home and do it again next year. They need to get serious with this.

This is not good for anyone. What about Sloe's fast lap? We will never know if that was done with a legal car. I hope that it was but no one will ever know.

Philip Smith
#54 A/S

This post exposes my most major concerns accurately. I have spent a great deal of money and time building a new AS car to enter into regional/national competition. I have been an SCCA member/license holder since 1992. IMO, the SCCA is the most credible and reliable sanctioning body. I am starting to have doubts.

I am building my car to about 8 tenths of the rules' limits, because I don't want to be DQ'd, ever.

My problem is: what are the rules exactly? I am very technically literate; give me a spec, and I will follow it to the letter. Stating that "if the rules don't say you can" means "you can't" just doesn't seem to cut it today.

Do I need the stock rubber door seal to be legal? If not, how is this a competitive advantage?

It seems like the ability to enforce exceeds the ability to clarify. Why is that?

Years ago, I built a non-competitive/failed World Challenge GT Mustang for SCCA Pro. I could call Gary Perry and get an answer on what I could and could not do. Is this possible in AS?

Do I have to take my car to the track to get it critiqued/validated to find out if it is legal? Do I have to win and get DQ'd to learn?

I want to race in AS.

Thanks for reading my post,

Bill Richter

.

23CRLmotorsports
10-15-2006, 11:45 PM
Thats a huge problem with scca, to many people interpret the rules there own way instead of doing as it says..

The runoffs Tv coverage is crap, and phillip is right bring a big cheater car and blow everyones doors off and look like a all star, get dq'd and nobody will probably ever know, Ive seen it once where the final results said a competitor was dq'd but if you werent looking you wouldnt have noticed it.

I would love to run a spec series thats fairly afordable, competitive and fair but that wont happen.

I would have rather seen sloe win that way they would have teched the car this way it put the rumors to rest , they would have either been the truth or a lie and that be that, I worked on the car alot this year I know the truth but now the rumors and trash talk will continue until the next time.. ohwell

great job jason thats awesome I wanted to come help crew for ya but dont have your number, but ohwell great run great job cen div on all the podiums Im glad I moved up here to run with you guys

SedanMan
10-16-2006, 05:35 AM
What a mess.

2 of the top three are DQ'd....But I have spent a bunch of time talking with Bill and he is an straight up guy.
Philip Smith
#54 A/SThanks Philip (and Jorge). I can't tell you how many times I've asked Wheeler and others about what's legal and what isn't, and each time made sure that the car I bought a couple of years ago was totally legal. I even went out and bought a turn signal lever and zip tied it into the car per the silly AS rule that you don't have to have it in it's stock location but you can't totally remove it from the car (thanks Wheel).

So here's my perspective on the DQ. A few thousandths of valve lift over .480" are a few thousandths, period. Rule says .480" max valve lift for GM cars so that's what it has to be. I picked a very competent and highly skilled engine builder to build my Runoffs engine but in fairness to him this was his first AS engine. Yes, I gave him a copy of the GCR, and yes I told him to never, ever, do anything that could get me DQ'd in tech, but apparently there was some disconnect and the SCCA tech guys measured just over .480" lift at the valve.

The sad part is that the Fords get .500" valve lift but the GMs only get .480" lift. Had my GM engine been allowed the same lift as the Fords are allowed then I would have a 2nd place finish at my first Runoffs instead of a DQ next to my name (forever). But a rule is a rule and for the rest of my life I'll have to live with the fact that I didn't double check my engine builder's work.

Please folks, if you don't build your own engines then I suggest you do everything you can to verify all the critical dimensions along the way. Yeah the engine builders will probably resent you for micromanaging them, or for not trusting them, or for implying that they don't know what they are doing, but feel free to use me as an example for what happens when you don't verify their work.

That one little engine mistake took away nearly $5,000 in contingency and sponsor money that I could have really used to pay for just a small part of what it cost me to go to the 2006 Runoffs. I'm so sick over the DQ that I'll have to think long and hard about whether or not I want to continue in AS as I was told in tech by SCCA officials that AS cars need to be torn apart and checked in much greater detail than most any other cars in other classes. (I was in tech for almost 24 hours, although I think the final 2nd and 3rd place cars were in 'teardown mode' for only a couple of hours.) There's no way I can check every last little item of every part of the car that someone else touches, especially all the engine internals. There are just some things (carb, trans, engine, rear end gears) that I would rather trust to professionals.

Technical hiccups aside, at least I can walk away knowing that a few thousandths of valve lift didn't get me to what I consider a true 3rd place finish. Yes, I finished there because a lot of the fast Mustangs broke, and yes some others had mechanicals. But outqualifying JH by 2 spots and then being complimented by JH and the Aquilantes for great driving was about the only nice experience from being next to the Phoenix car in tech for nearly 24 hours. (btw, I had never met the Aquilantes before the Runoffs but they are really great guys)

To those that know me and support me, I thank you. To my crew, friends, family, and current or potential sponsors, I apologize for not managing my engine builder better. Unless this has happened to you I'm not sure anyone will ever know what it feels like to stand on the podium at your first Runoffs, to be interviewed by the press, and to be congratulated by all your friends and family, only to have it taken away in tech for something minor that you had absolutely no clue about or that ultimately was so small that it would not have changed the outcome of the race.

Mark Allen
10-16-2006, 05:45 AM
Bill,

Congratulations on a great drive. Watching virtually (online) it was fun to watch you steadily climb the leaderboard until the end. Damn shame about the cam. We've all seen it happen and it just makes you sick. The real shame of it is that the rule is written around zero lash while with our mech setups people are running anywhere from .006" to .028" lash depending on the cam.

Be happy to know that at least the runoffs coverage will have you finishing third with no more than a footnote (maybe) at the end of the broadcast.

Congrats on a great week!

Mark

matthew roberts
10-16-2006, 08:35 AM
I would like to say Mike did a great job. They DQed him for a Accerlator pump on his carb. What BS. I guess they wanted JH to win. Mike is a straight shooter. Mike works very hard on his program. His motor & the rest of his car pasted. Just about every car at the runoff's has something wrong with it. 99 when Eric Curran won he had monoball ball joints in it. Tom Less bought Andy's two time champion car. The factory door reinforcement bars are removed. If they wanted to get rid of you they will. Until you make it to the runoffs & make to the podium don't point fingers you have got a good chance of being bounced.

Matt Roberts

BMiller
10-16-2006, 09:34 AM
I would like to say Mike did a great job. They DQed him for a Accerlator pump on his carb. What BS. I guess they wanted JH to win. Mike is a straight shooter. Mike works very hard on his program. His motor & the rest of his car pasted. Just about every car at the runoff's has something wrong with it. 99 when Eric Curran won he had monoball ball joints in it. Tom Less bought Andy's two time champion car. The factory door reinforcement bars are removed. If they wanted to get rid of you they will. Until you make it to the runoffs & make to the podium don't point fingers you have got a good chance of being bounced.

Matt Roberts
Wait a second, an accel. pump is standard issue on our spec carb. Why was someone DQd for that? :confused:

jimwheeler
10-16-2006, 09:42 AM
Every single ASedan racer and crew person that I met at Topeka was a complete gentleman. This is, without exception, a great group of guys. Mike and Bill, John, Jason, Ed... Great drives, from someone chasing you for most of the race, and a damn shame what happened after to Mike and Bill . I crashed the tech shed, without credentials, to give you all congratulations because of my respect for what you had accomplished.

I was in 3rd after the first session on Monday. I wasn't one of the cars called in to tech, and it is a good thing. That night, while Ed Hosni told about his post qual. impound, (1/8" front valance violation - measured several times without ever duplicating the exact measurement) I heard that they had also checked rear camber. That morning at I woke up at 1:00 a.m. in a panic that I had not had mine checked after third link brackets had been welded on. I took my car in voluntarily and it was measured slightly pregnant, although they couldn't duplicate the exact degree of camber. Tuesday, I took it to the GM Performance garage and had corner weights and a full a alignment and then spent the day trying to bend the housing with a giant chain and a 20 ton jack. It bent, but by Wednesday morning had popped back to where it had been. While everyone else was out on track Wednesday, I was heating (to glowing red) and quenching with ice water, the bottom of the rear end. End result was a straight rear end.
Thursday I went faster and dropped two spots to fifth.

When the green came out we popped over the hill and someone (Kyle, I think) locked up all four and it was just like tv coverage of NASCAR, my windshield went totally white. I will have to watch the coverage to see which direction I went, but I kept my foot in it to avoid getting drilled from behind. I got drilled anyway..... a couple of times. By turn three I was third, but Tom started a death smoke almost immediately and by the second lap I figured I was in 2nd. Andy was right on my ass and hit me at least three times. Later he told me he was yelling, "come on wheeler, get going" and I was yelling, "I'm peddling as fast as I can".

My breakfast is ready, so I'll continue this in a few minutes.
wheel

matthew roberts
10-16-2006, 10:11 AM
50cc instead of the standard 30

jimwheeler
10-16-2006, 10:18 AM
I spun at turn one. There was a bump and around I went. I thought, at the time, that Andy had tapped me again, but I think now that the bump was my tire hopping over the inside rumble strip. Three or four cars came by and I set off after Bill Shepergerdes. My car was smoking from the start with a rear end overflow problem. The breather is low on the right side and has a small tube running up to the overflow canister, which was high on the cage, right behind my head. I knew it was a problem, but didn't get around to fixing it. Dumb.

Anyway, I was breathing hypoid fumes the whole race and I started losing touch with reality. I don't remember much about the final third of the race, except that I spun again at turn 11/12 and had a coming together with Jason. I have a million laps on this track and I have NEVER spun there, or had a problem there. I will have to see the tape to see about my deal with Jason that I mentioned earlier. I didn't have any damage to that side of my car, but I don't doubt that whatever happened was my fault.

I got out of the car at the penalty box to talk to the Stewards about car to car contact. They said that car to car had been reported with 24 hitting the 20. I said that we had a little rub here an there when I braked a little early and when I lost traction coming out of a corner, but that he didn't spin me or take advantage and that I considered it a non event. They sent Andy on his way, but kept me for contact with Jason. It was a surprise to me. Jason was pissed, but chose not to have me busted.

Since I was 7th, I went to the trailer.

When I picked up the provisionals, I was in 6th, with Andy in 9th. I took the golf cart to impound and brought Andy to the Stewards so I could testify that the contact was nothing. Andy came out and said they had him for jumping the start. He pulled his car out of impound and went home.

If you do the math on how many cars came by me with my two spins, I might have been the one DQ'd out of the national championship for an accelerator pump or a couple of thousandths of valve lift. I haven't, personally, checked my engine builder's cam specs, nor do I have any idea what you could possibly do to an accelerator pump that would make it illegal. Mine might not have passed either.

Ted Johnson finished 10th on the track and 8th in the tech shed for a fantastic rookie outing. I'm real proud of what he did. Tom Wallace, Brian Wallace and Scott Ackerman drove down to crew for Ted in Tom's car.
Thanks to everybody that dropped by for Margarittas and special thanks to Chuck and the Chili crew. This was the first time, in my memory, that just about every AS guy came to the Chili party.

The AS meeting in the tent was a big Zero for me. It was not on time and I was doing a little piece with Speed and missed the AS portion of the meeting. Andy did call together an AS-only meeting after the official meeting was adjourned. We'll be discussing that stuff a little later. Jeff Kopp is going to set up a link, here, where you can email directly to all members of AdHoc.

All for now.
wheel

jimwheeler
10-16-2006, 10:31 AM
50cc instead of the standard 30


I thought that changing pumps and accelerator curves was an accepted tuning process. I had better re-read that rule. I don't have a clue what accelerator pump is on my carb. I do know the engine builder tunes the carb when he dynos the motor. Oh shit.

wheel

matthew roberts
10-16-2006, 10:48 AM
They had a new carb there & noticed the pump was taller. Mike's engine builder possible changed it. Mike is not sure. He had two cars & numourous parts. Does not know which car the carb came from. He tried to say it was for turning purposes. He ever called holley & spoke to someone & they stated that the pump change would not increase HP but is a way to tune your motor. SCCA did not what to speak to holley & said it was not an approved modification.

Matt

jimwheeler
10-16-2006, 10:51 AM
I repeat my comment. Oh shit. I thought that was an approved tuning method. It certainly is discussed in any Holly material I have ever seen. Man, I'm glad I was only 7th and didn't get called in. Mike, I am so sorry for your hosing.
wheel

King Matt
10-16-2006, 11:39 AM
It's sad to see the results tempered with such controversy. I was surprised also by the shrinking of the field this year. I recall there were almost 40 cars in the championship race last year at Mid-Ohio. Fewer than 25 took the grid this year. What does that say about the health of the class? Also, I think the results will go a long way toward quieting the critics who claim the GM cars are uncompetitive, what with two of them on the (original) podium and four I think in the Top 10, and it was clear from qualifying that they were running competitive lap times. Beyond that, the difference in luck, driver skill, and car prep, is at least as if not more important than engine rules. As far as the DQs go, in my mind things like cam lift and carb mods are far more significant than weatherstripping and turn signal stalks. I have no doubt that both could be considerable competitive advantages in the right hands. Of course, it's easy to blame the "engine builder" after the fact and say it made no difference, but we all know that it's the sum of all the little tweaks that make the big differences in the end. Still, it's unfortunate to see the winner crowned in the tech shed.

jimwheeler
10-16-2006, 11:51 AM
Matt,
I had nothing for the mustangs on power. My showing was because I had a good car but five thousand laps at Topeka. Phil Smith and Jim Stevens were the other two GM's near the front and they have almost as many laps as I do. Bill Shepergerdes came out to Topeka for a performance driving event this summer and he was coached by Ted Johnson and by me. You would have to ask him if that helped, but we showed him everything we could about the track.

A number of people watching the race, including several who know nothing about racing, said that it was amazing how much more hp the three or four leading mustangs had.

Nothing about the hp advantage was put to rest at all.

wheel

t4wallace
10-16-2006, 12:14 PM
JT
They did it with Spec Miata why not A/S. Yes there were plenty of tech for SM but why not A/S. I am not talking about each national race but maybe sometime. At least this should be done at the runoffs.

Philip
AS was worked over like SM back in 95 and 96 when the class was new (just like SM is this year). SCCA feels that this gives the competitors a level playing field to start off with and then the rest is up to us after that.

The system that SCCA uses is much like the court system: innocent until proven guilty. In fact, the guilty must be charged with a non-compliance (crime) before the judge will hear the case even if it is obvious. This is the system that we live and die by. It's no different at the Runoffs (from what I have seen) with the exception that there is more staff (volunteers) to handle the spot-checks that have been agreed to before hand. They have a list to check ALL CARS by so as to not set off a witch hunt on a particular car or make of car. Seems fair, but it isn't because there are those that push the gray, and there are those that make honest mistakes or trust an engine builder (THAT is a mistake in this class -- get to know your builder and stay on top of them, and make sure that the specs are being followed). Think that Mike would have liked his carb checked earlier in the week? I had a very similar carb issue get "caught" last year and it allowed me to be "compliant" for the race. I trusted the carb was legal and it wasn't.

To my point: I'd like to see the ENTIRE rule book be enforced at the Runoffs for every car that comes thru during the week. They make a point to see every car at least once. Why? I'm not sure since they don't make a point to have all cars of similar make in the building at the same time to view "interpretation" of the rules. Maybe they did that earlier in the week when I wasn't there. Trust me on this, if cars of the same make were in the building at the same time, there is stuff so obvious that it would not get missed and it could be addressed then with no doubt. But they want the drivers to go through the "paper" process so that it wasn't a witch hunt when someone gets caught. This approach would also give the driver/crew a chance to see the cars in a neutral environment. I might be alone on this, but I have no problem being in tech for a few hours with my fellow AS friends during the week if it allows SCCA to get a handle on the class.

I write this with the assumption that SCCA wants car prep and driver talent to win the race, NOT an interpretation of the gray area. Which, BTW, if you read the opening of the AS rules, there isn't any. You can only do, and modify, what is specified. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't. Still don't understand the confusion in that.

If, and only IF, the cars are treated like they were back in 95/96, will we ever really clean some of the stuff up. That, or we get the protest band playing and just have everyone all pissed off at each other.

Bottom line is that if we rely on SCCA to clean up the town it will never happen.

jimwheeler
10-16-2006, 12:31 PM
I just talked to my engine builder, Tony Shaffer, and I would have passed both the carb and lift questions. He measured my lift at zero lash, like the rule says, and he said Bill's guy probably didn't compensate for lash. Also, my carb has the original accelerator pumps (30 cc), so I would have passed both those items.
It was the first road race Tony had ever attended and he said he cringed at how hard I twisted his engine in every gear, on every lap. He is a drag racer and builds circle track engines, as well. He wasn't ready for what we do at the Runoffs.
wheel

King Matt
10-16-2006, 12:32 PM
Nothing about the hp advantage was put to rest at all.
It's not my intention to argue the HP point, but maybe the perceived disparity isn't all it's cracked up to be given the final results. It certainly seems plausible that a third party observer, such as me or the CRB, could look at the results and wonder what all the griping is about.

jimwheeler
10-16-2006, 12:46 PM
Matt,
Agreed. (someone like you could look at the results and wonder what the griping was about) HPT is a torque track, rather than a hp track. The Chevy torque, coming out of the corners was an advantage. The straights are not long enough for the Ford Hp to take over. Where, at MidO, the Mustangs would be pulling the Camaros, and still have more straight left over......at Topeka, you are in the braking zone.

Car count was down as we had a number of entries who didn't make it and a couple of cars, notably Jim Stevens, who didn't take the start. I was disappointed in the turnout and hope that is just a blip on the radar and not a real trend.
Jim

t4wallace
10-16-2006, 01:07 PM
It's not my intention to argue the HP point, but maybe the perceived disparity isn't all it's cracked up to be given the final results. It certainly seems plausible that a third party observer, such as me or the CRB, could look at the results and wonder what all the griping is about.
I have the same fear that it will be seen as you see it. And this is not meant to stir debate. But it will.

The griping will be that the FINAL results don't reflect that the 7 was flat gone and rapidly leaving the field behind. Not at the rate that the front Solsti skewered the field in SSB, but he was WAAAAY out on the field. They won't reflect that P. Smith broke a trans or that SedanMan was bounced (sorry Bill) or that Kyle melted his Hoosiers in the first turn on the first lap or that Ed forgot that the brake was on the left and gave himself a 15 second handicap, or that Wheeler found a legal way to cop a buzz or that Heinricy is a professional or, or, or. Looking at the results is what will happen and the blinders and KoolAid will be passed around.

Plus, HPT can't be the only place that's considered. But it will be the measuring stick. At tracks like Road America it ain't even close. There is no perception here. A good GM will lose an average of ten car lengths of track position, per lap, to a good Mustang. Sooo, a place like current CenDiv is not a place for a GM with 3/4 of the races putting a premium on horsepower. As I have said, HP doesn't fade like tires and brakes. Well, OK, just tires now.

But will end up being a cow's opinion: mooooot.

Car count, hopefully, will be a blip. My fear is that it is reflective of 1. the health of the class (rules, disparity, etc.), 2. the move put distance on the NE and CenDiv where AS count is high and 3. people are in the wait and see mode.

Great job to all those that I had to watch this year. :cheers:

SedanMan
10-16-2006, 01:12 PM
Also, I think the results will go a long way toward quieting the critics who claim the GM cars are uncompetitive, what with two of them on the (original) podium and four I think in the Top 10, and it was clear from qualifying that they were running competitive lap times. Beyond that, the difference in luck, driver skill, and car prep, is at least as if not more important than engine rules.Sorry Matt, but I disagree. HPT is not supposed to be a "horsepower track" so the hp difference won't be as obvious at HPT as it would be at other tracks. However, it was obvious to me from the driver's seat that the Fords easily walked away from the GMs under acceleration.

Nothing is perfect but I think my car was set up pretty well. I had a prior AS Runoffs winner drive my car in a few test sessions at HPT the week before the Runoffs and although my lap times were a bit quicker than his (maybe I was more familiar with the car) he said the car was dialed in. Pyrometer temps, data acquisition results, and alignment verification by the GM tech guys (btw, thanks GM) confirmed it. I qualified 8th, 2 positions in front of JH and but behind a string of Fords. What's missing to get a GM car to the front is horsepower. The reason I finished 3rd was because some cars broke and some had off-track excursions. That's the danger of looking at finishing results and jumping to conclusions about engine parity.

smithpr
10-16-2006, 07:50 PM
Matt:

I totally agree with you. The HP issue is settled. Just not the way that you see it. The Fords have an overwhelming advantage. Look at the fast laps during the race. Sloe was 1.7 seconds faster then the fastest GM. John and I both ran 1:55.9 he as a little faster. The top two Fords were over 1.0 seconds faster then the GMs. Look at the grid. Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford. Jim and I were 3 tens back and then it got even worse.

Philip

ssjrrupp
10-17-2006, 10:12 PM
I hate to say this and be the bad guy, especially because I wasn't there and I've been out but twice in my car, both of which times it broke, but it is quite true that we can't look at the results of the 2006 Runoffs and come close to determining the horsepower differences and what needs to be done. The reason is because, hell, there were 2 dq's and the guy who originally set the pace blew up without getting checked!

When the SCCA checks the cars at the Runoffs, do they essentially have a list of items and check them off one by one? Where in the sequence of such a check list is the carb? Point being, the carb is on top of the engine. I'm not insinuating, or at least I am not trying to insinuate, that the winner's car was blatantly illegal. But jeez... the original top two cars, Sloe and Lavigne, were leaving the pack by a minimum 1.2 secs a lap. My wife was sitting here with me watching the online timing, and I said to her, "wow... there's no way John Heinricy is going to take the top spot this year! These guys are running away with it." She just shook her head. It occured to me at that time that the race for the win was probably behind the two fastest Mustangs. Then, some time later when the provisionals came out, she was not surprised at all, where I was. This board has several threads in which guys talk about the various people they know, or think they know, are cheating all year long. Why should the Runoffs be any different?

In my original post I stated that I at least expected JH or Andy to make up some time, but they never did, not even close. That gap just grew, and grew, and grew. As far as I was concerned, as an observer on the internet with my own car in the trailer and a little experience, but alot of reading here... the race for third was the race for the win, and when Sloe's car blew, the race for second was the race for the win.

I feel pretty bad for Bill S. He's a great guy and helped me out earlier in the year quite a bit. But in the end obviously the tech inspectors don't care about "not knowing what someone else did." I'm not on a soap box here; I know what I inherited that's still illegal on my car. But I'm not even close to being competitive nationally. Oh well.

The only thing that is clear from the results is that JH has a legal car and he's a very, very good and consistant driver. You just don't leave someone like this with his car prepared as well as it is in the dust at a rate of 1.2 secs a lap without something being "weird."

Best Regards

AndyFranklin
10-18-2006, 06:06 PM
The only thing that is clear from the results is that JH has a legal car and he's a very, very good and consistant driver. You just don't leave someone like this with his car prepared as well as it is in the dust at a rate of 1.2 secs a lap without something being "weird."


Once again there is the unsubstantiated insinuation. Obviously, I have a bias, but the disappointment I felt when I was watching online was very real when Tom broke. I'm sorry he didn't win. One, he is a HUGE talent, both in driving and in preparation. Second, having the car teched would have put the bs to rest. I'm confident the car is legal - we've wrestled with and fought over the GCR enough to give me that. Third, he works at it very, very hard.

I think that Tom deserves the credit for that 1.2 seconds a lap.

23CRLmotorsports
10-18-2006, 06:59 PM
toms a great driver, andhis knowledge of road racing and set up is near amazing, I learned a ton this season, If you can figure out how to communicate with him and figure out his codes like do flingers and ratchama thing and then put aside the pure caos in the trailer or shop he could be a great teacher or have one heck of a set up. I wish him luck and I wish he would have won so the car could have got teched. He is great at reading the GCR thats for sure although I see some thing differently then him ohwell I would like to see it pass then it give me a green light to use the same stuff and go really fast but it didnt stay toghether and I dont think the cloud of doubt will ever go away until it is teched thru and thru and not by his tech buddies but some head honcho tech guys, without that the forcast is cloudy for ever.

anyways what went in the motor victory builds great stuff but tom isnt nice to anything specially when he is yellin commin tru.... but thats the 3rd motor he grenaded this year Im sure martin aint fond of the bill but theres gotta be a problem with something. it killed him at the sprints and then kills him at the runoffs? what gives