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koscieldrk
07-10-2006, 12:32 PM
Any results from IRP

d66stand
07-10-2006, 01:57 PM
Qual:

Andy 144.3
Stanley 145.2
Hosni 145.6
Shook 147.5
Doll
Muddiman
Dont recall the rest

Race:

Andy 143.3ish
Hosni 144.5
Stanley 145.1
Doll 145.2
Shook
Dont recall the rest

Andy is unbelievably fast in the new 05 Mustang.

briandoll
07-10-2006, 02:02 PM
Results are online at:

Qualifying:
http://www.indyscca.org/RaceFiles/Race%20Results/2006/IGP/FIN-2--Q-Grid.PDF

Race:
http://www.indyscca.org/RaceFiles/Race%20Results/2006/IGP/FIN-Race-Results-2-.PDF

SedanMan
07-10-2006, 03:59 PM
Andy is unbelievably fast in the new 05 Mustang.Is this the same Mustang that was just built this year and has very little development time on it?

Was Andy's 2005 Mustang 1.4 seconds per lap faster than the second place Mustang (Hosni) who won the June Sprints this year?

d66stand
07-10-2006, 05:19 PM
I think Ed would agree that he had nothing for Andy. No disrespect to you Ed.

SedanMan
07-10-2006, 05:50 PM
I think Ed would agree that he had nothing for Andy. No disrespect to you Ed.So where could we assume that GM cars would finish compared to a well prepared, well driven 2005+ Mustang?

Ackjazz
07-10-2006, 05:56 PM
So where could we assume that GM cars would finish compared to a well prepared, well driven 2005+ Mustang?

SedanMan...you pokin' the tiger again? I'm guessing short of Brian, we'd be in the "don't recall the rest" category.

jericker
07-10-2006, 10:47 PM
Hey Scott, I was in that "don't recall the rest" category along with Fred Hetherwick and Dave Hart. I think Andy has the Runoffs assuming he finishes without any mechanicals. The car is so wicked fast and he is so smooth. I can bost the fact that he didn't lap me even though he was right on my bumper at the checkered flag! Ed Hosni is also wicked fast and will be a formidable challenge in Topeka as well. As far as the bowtie guys, sorry, Brian Doll held his own, but Dave Hart had a spectacular blow-up going through the esses heading toward the carousel. I don't see anyone besting Andy and his new ride though.

Jon

t4wallace
07-11-2006, 11:36 AM
The reality is that Andy has MANY laps at IRP. Don't know what experience Ed has there (something to consider). Andy was under the track record right away (and I think that Tom set it last year on the new pavement) and they both went just a second faster in the race. Brian Doll can jockey a car, and he's running good 4th gen stuff. So......

Andy is showing what the 05 is capable of, and he is still sorting. He's also aware of the advantage the car has and knows that the class will suffer if nothing is done.

A barometer of track condition might be seen by Max Lagod and Jerry Mason not lowering the GT1 & 2 records. We'd have to ask them what "program" they were on, but they were not faster than some pretty dated records.

I fully expect that Andy will win. And that is no disrespect to any other AS driver. His experience and the advantage that the 05 currently has will make it his race to lose. Have I said that before?

TW

koscieldrk
07-11-2006, 01:06 PM
Don't know what experience Ed has there (something to consider).
TW

First time for ED at IRP. Only thing he had seen prior is Video's from Myself and Robin Burnett

ehosni
07-11-2006, 01:33 PM
Unfortunately, I never got a chance to view the video before I went on track. I did get to meet a very nice tire wall in practice and managed to do a 4 revelotion spin in turn 1. Needless to say I had no idea where I was going or what I was doing. Track was very bumpy. People complain about Nelson Ledges and Grattan. I think IRP is worse.

t4wallace
07-11-2006, 03:07 PM
Unfortunately, I never got a chance to view the video before I went on track. I did get to meet a very nice tire wall in practice and managed to do a 4 revelotion spin in turn 1. Needless to say I had no idea where I was going or what I was doing. Track was very bumpy. People complain about Nelson Ledges and Grattan. I think IRP is worse.
I have not been there since the resurface, but it was especially terrible where you cross the staging lanes in the back. Sounds like they chose to leave some of the character. Glad you spun in 1 w/o incident. There is (was?) a service road on the outside that usually causes undue hurt to any car that goes that way.

Nice job getting up to speed.

TW

SedanMan
07-11-2006, 04:08 PM
I fully expect that Andy will win. And that is no disrespect to any other AS driver. His experience and the advantage that the 05 currently has will make it his race to lose. Have I said that before?

TWMakes me wonder what the point is in driving 1,500 miles one way when you know you don't have a chance at any of the top finishing positions (if you drive a GM car). I'd better not get out the calculator and figure out how many thousands of dollars I'll save by not showing up......maybe enough to buy a Spec Miata.

socalta
07-11-2006, 04:16 PM
oh easy. .. at least enough to buy a mid pack one

thomas toth
07-12-2006, 07:59 PM
Geeeez guys, relax. You can only have one winner at the runoffs and chances are it won't be most of us writing in here. Gosh..is this Andy's first track record???? Don't think so. Wow....surprise, surprise Andy's new car is faster than his 5 year old pounded into the ground old car....go figure. Did you think he would have built a slower car? Look at it this way, he would have had an excellent chance of winning the runoffs in his old car, maybe now he can bloody the nose of Johnny Rocket a bit.

When I first started racing I was bitching about track conditions when a driver (Now in Speed GT) stopped me by saying "I feel that I'm blessed by just having the opportunity to race". That statement never left me.... Enjoy the ride, do the best you can and give them hell. Oh yea, bring Beer!

Tom
#38 Camaro
Cen Div.

SedanMan
07-12-2006, 08:20 PM
Geeeez guys, relax. You can only have one winner at the runoffs and chances are it won't be most of us writing in here..... Enjoy the ride, do the best you can and give them hell. Oh yea, bring Beer!

Tom
#38 Camaro
Cen Div.Some people race at the Regional level to, self admittedly, just "have fun". You can also have fun by trying to win the Runoffs. I agree that there can only be one winner, but I think you're missing the point that one car platform has the potential to be in a class all its own. Any commentary about Andy is secondary. The "fun" portion of the Runoffs is greatly diminished when you tell someone that they have no chance of winning unless harm comes to quite a few other cars that have greater potential than theirs does.

I don't think anyone wants harm to come to fellow competitors, I do think most people want to have fun at the Runoffs, and I most definitely think that people who have invested time and money into their program that have above average driving ability would like to have a chance at winning. Anyone can stay home and drink beer......you don't have to go to the Runoffs for that.

My point is that cars other than 2005+ Mustangs, or cars with Ford horsepower, should have a chance at winning, not that everyone is going to win. Barring some sad series of events, GM cars without Heinricy's Pro driving and GM's/Phoenix's development don't stand a chance to win the way the rules are right now. (but Ford and GM owners have known this for some time now, just not the SCCA....at least they choose not to do anything about it)

jericker
07-12-2006, 10:22 PM
My point is that cars other than 2005+ Mustangs, or cars with Ford horsepower, should have a chance at winning, not that everyone is going to win. Barring some sad series of events, GM cars without Heinricy's Pro driving and GM's/Phoenix's development don't stand a chance to win the way the rules are right now. (but Ford and GM owners have known this for some time now, just not the SCCA....at least they choose not to do anything about it)[/QUOTE]


Uh=oh, here we go again!!! Tom you started another session. I tend to agree with Tom, let's just go out and have fun. Winning the Runoffs should only add to the fun, not be the only fun. Next thread please.

Jon

SedanMan
07-12-2006, 11:30 PM
I tend to agree with Tom, let's just go out and have fun. Winning the Runoffs should only add to the fun, not be the only fun. Next thread please.

JonI'm not getting on this Merry-Go-Round except to post once to clarify my original point that you folks keep missing. You keep saying that people shouldn't worry about whether or not they WIN the Runoffs and just have fun. I keep saying that not having a chance to win because the SCCA chooses to bias the rules to one make over another is demoralizing to those not favored by the SCCA. Period.

A chance for a win folks, a CHANCE. The drivers should sort out the finishing order, not the brand of car.

This will be my 1st Runoffs and if the rules don't change for 2007 then this will probably be my last in AS. I'm a loyal GM guy and I don't see changing that in the near future (it's easier to move to another class and come back if/when this ever gets sorted out and have fun somewhere else in the mean time). What I do know is that no sponsors want to hear excuses about why you can't finish higher than bottom of the Top 10 "because the class favors Mustangs and 'too many Mustangs entered this year'", not to mention that there's no end in sight.

Btw, how many of you guys going to the Runoffs to "have fun" are towing a total of 3,000 miles in 6 days to get to and from the Runoffs?

Also, how many podium finishers at the Runoffs do you think just showed up to have fun? Hopefully they're having fun along the way but we're talking about top finishers here (and in AS) and that doesn't just happen. It takes a lot of hard work, determination, testing, and lots and lots of money to finish at the top. So if a person's intention is to be on the podium and commits resources accordingly then finishing 10th because the rules won't allow your car to be competitive is a complete waste. The consolation prize "but you had fun, right?" is pretty weak if you have 5 figures and 14 days of vacation time invested in just one race. Finishing 10th because there were 9 better drivers is a different story.

Post over.....back to your regularly scheduled program.

King Matt
07-13-2006, 12:26 AM
You have one data point on the 05 Mustang and yet you proclaim the sky is falling. I looked at last year's qualifying results for the Runoffs, and there were only 8 cars within one second of Heinricy's pole lap. Four of them were GMs, including John. There were cars in the field that qualified 10 SECONDS off the pole! Half of the field was more than 2 seconds off the pole. It's pretty obvious that there is a huge disparity in driving skill and car prep at the even the top of the national level in the class, regardless of any perceived advantages in the rules. You could give a lot of those people 50hp on the field and they'd still be in the back.

t4wallace
07-13-2006, 11:52 AM
You have one data point on the 05 Mustang and yet you proclaim the sky is falling.
Agreed that Andy is only one data point, just as Heinricy is only one. While I have not spoken to Andy directly, I can say that he is fully aware of the gun he's bringing to the knife fight and also knows that the car is "out of spec" in regards to weight (and hp/wt). The sky is not falling, especially if you jockey a Mustang.

I looked at last year's qualifying results for the Runoffs, and there were only 8 cars within one second of Heinricy's pole lap. Four of them were GMs, including John. There were cars in the field that qualified 10 SECONDS off the pole! Half of the field was more than 2 seconds off the pole. It's pretty obvious that there is a huge disparity in driving skill and car prep at the even the top of the national level in the class, regardless of any perceived advantages in the rules.
Matt -- you need to look at the data in a different/deeper way before making a blanket statement like that. There will always be those that are off the pace for whatever reason. We need to IGNORE those folks when it comes to the rules b/c they are not at the edge of the performance envelope. There is no PERCEPTION here. The REALITY is that there is a disparity that can be seen when comparing the best prepared and best driven cars in the class. Again, Andy even acknowledges the disparity.

If you look at just the top ten, the gap in qualifying between F and GM was .23 sec. Take JH out and it was .46 sec. Go to the race and measure those that q'd in the top ten and finished in the top ten and the Ford advantage grew to .621 for race best time and .5 sec. for race ave. time (tires and brakes fade, hp does not). THAT is measurable data and we haven't even looked at the advantage that the 05 Mustang brings to the track. There is more data here that talks about more than just 05: http://www.asedan.net/forums/showthread.php?t=187

I'll be the first to take my lumps if Andy doesn't leverage his advantage to a gold medal in October.

Competing is what I find fun/rewarding. That's why I race. I even enjoy competing at a disadvantage for the challenge -- to a point. But when I have an ice cube's chance in hell, then what's the point of being the prey? Oh yeah, the shit sandwich. We have a fast 3rd Gen and it CAN'T run the pace of the Mustangs in the current rule set. Maybe Toth's is faster???

For some, making the Runoffs is fun and a good season. I in no way disrespect that. For those that prepare to win the Runoffs in a GM car, the fun has just about evaporated. I speak only for us on this, but the last two years has been frustrating at best.

To Toth -- we HAVE had the CHANCE to win and know what it takes, and right now it takes a Ford. An 05 Ford. Period. That's the point that was and has been made here ad nauseum.

TW

thomas toth
07-13-2006, 11:55 AM
Matt, I couldn't agree more. Andy is one hell of a driver. Look at the 2005 Runoffs results. We are all saying how great John is and how he has a pro built car, but didn't Andy, a do it your self guy post the fastest race lap?

Andy is now a larger threat than he was before, but he is still in that upper 1 or 2% as he has always been. Soooo I guess that rather than being a second a lap faster than me he will now be 1 1/2 seconds a lap faster.

One car, one excellent driver and one lap record isn't the end of the world. Nothing is stopping any of us from building a Mustang (other than a ton of cash).

Tom
#38 Camaro

t4wallace
07-13-2006, 02:01 PM
One car, one excellent driver and one lap record isn't the end of the world. Nothing is stopping any of us from building a Mustang (other than a ton of cash).

Tom
#38 Camaro
And that is the point.

Racetex
07-13-2006, 02:41 PM
I got one that can be rented?

thomas toth
07-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Jeff....does it come with Kuhmos???