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harpster98
12-28-2008, 09:01 AM
New A/S engines, Ford or Chevy best of everything. 440HP, 390ft.lbs. torque, aluminum heads, with carb. $16,000.00. Contact Phil @PHMotorsports 248-767-9560.

smithpr
12-28-2008, 11:16 PM
I have used PHM engines for years. They are great and he really knows what he is doing with these engines. They also last a very long time.

Philip

Brian Wallace
12-29-2008, 10:37 PM
We have used Harper engines (AS and GT1) and have had great power and reliability. We have never been disappointed with one of his engines.

This message has been approved by Tom :D

oldtransamdriver
01-07-2009, 12:21 PM
$16,000 now for an A sedan engine? This is stupid. You guys have lost sight of the original affordable racing A sedan idea. Good luck in trying to grow this series. I'm out of it.

Robert Barg

jimwheeler
01-07-2009, 12:27 PM
I paid a little more than $16K for my last three ASedan motors, combined, and I seem to be doing OK. You can compete with an engine under $10K in this class. And, it is going to get easier now that we will all have comparable heads.
Of course, you can spend $16K if you want, or you can spend $10K on a stock Spec Miata motor, if you want.

wheel

t4wallace
01-07-2009, 02:14 PM
$16,000 now for an A sedan engine? This is stupid. You guys have lost sight of the original affordable racing A sedan idea. Good luck in trying to grow this series. I'm out of it.

Robert Barg
Wheel already addressed your heartburn. It's YOUR choice. And Wheel offered the other approach. Crate engines don't lower cost if you're looking for top power (which Harper delivers). Top guys will buy 3, run the best and sell the others.

BTW, I think that's a "call-in" from scratch price and includes dyno break-in. We have not worked with Rebello , but I have heard of similar pricing. And it's been over $12K to have a pro "built-from-scratch" engine in AS for some time now. And like the brakes, you can run parts that will provide better durability. Or, spend less and not.

To Wheel's point, there are MANY ways to pour/piss/hemorrhage/waste $$$ in racing. There are also the right places to spend $$$ in racing. You'll NEVER get racers to agree to where the right place is. But for RA, it'll be HP.

What I think is stupid (no confrontation is being looked for or intended here Robert) is how people can't/refuse see the options NEVER BEFORE available in AS. Options that easily get you in the "power range" of the current engines. Options that allow mothballed/uncompetitive T2 cars a place to play. Not sure how that kills the class. Too many have worked to hard for it to be otherwise. Time will tell who is right.

jimwheeler
01-07-2009, 02:22 PM
In the general scheme of things, there are far larger forces at work on whether the class, or racing in general, survives in the current economic environment.
I do think that ASedan is still one of the best deals in racing. There are $25K (and more) Spec Miatas out there and you need to damn near spend that kind of money to win a national.
I expect the AS numbers to be down this season, but in proportion to all amateur racing, I think we will hold our own. Like Tom says, time will tell.

kbsmith1
01-07-2009, 08:41 PM
A $16000 AS engine is not a new development. For a complete carb to pan engine, with good parts and machine work, and not doing any of the work yourself that is a price that isn't much different from about 10 years ago.

Although Jim says's he has done 3 AS engines for that price, I suspect that he hasn't bought 3 separate carbs, one for each engine. I don't know how much stuff gets reused each time. I bet he doesn't have 3
distributors, one for each of those engines. I suspect he may have reused an intake manifold, and maybe an oil pan.

Hell, just the dyno breakin is probably a $500 (or more) buck deal. When you add up all the parts cost, and machine work cost, and time associated with a pro assembly, well, ... it costs.

I know when building/refreshing my engine, I don't spend that much, but that's because I get to reuse a whole bunch of parts. I haven't had a new set of heads since 2000, but they have been updated/refreshed quite a few times.

You've always been able to spend that money on engines in this class. It used to be that you'd spend that by blowing the engines up on a consistent basis, but only spending $7K on the engine.

I personally think that most of the changes have allowed low buck people to reuse parts and build up to a competive engine without having to worry quite so much about blowing something wide open and losing it all.

But, as with any racing, you do have to be able to stomach potentially throwing it all down the tube and starting over, because that can certainly still happen.

jimwheeler
01-07-2009, 09:12 PM
Kevin,
Most of your points are well taken. I have three pans, two intake manifolds, three Holly carbs. Many parts have overlapped over the years. My last engine, which I ran at the Runoffs, was a complete new engine, from pan to intake manifold. Carb, distributer, valve covers, and exhaust headers from the old engine. Total cost was about $9K, including dyno time. I know, I get a hell of a deal. I know I spent more than $50K with Tony over the years. I never argue about price. I always pay some of it up front, and the rest on completion. I am not like many of his other customers, when it comes to money. (drag racers and circle track racers)
I am also sure he gives me a great deal.
I also do not think that $16K for a turn-key engine is out of line. I just pointed out that you don't have to spend that amount to have a good AS motor.

I also agree that anyone can get much closer to me and to Philip and to Andy, for much less money, with the new rules, than last season. That was the whole point.

I really hope it all works.
wheel

smithpr
01-08-2009, 05:50 PM
Guys:

While I agree that 16,000 seem like a S*** Load of Money for an A/S engine you can't imagine the price of the parts. I am not going to get into the complete list but the parts you would get for your money are amazing and that is what is really driving up the cost of the engine. I am spending more on parts then Jim is spending on his entire engine. :eek:

Let's just talk about one area as an example; oil pans. Most 3rd Gen Chevy guys go out and buy the Canton oil pan and then pray. This pan costs about $400. I know for a fact that this pan has contributed to at least 5 A/S engine failures. I have been able to make it work in the past but I had to spend a $200 to have the pan customized. The $16,000 engine price includes a hand build custom Aluminum billet pan that has about 50% more capacity then the stock Canton RR pan and a much improved design in all respects. Let's just say the cost of this pan is more then double the stock canton pan. Is this money well spent? You must ask yourselves that question. This is just one example of what you get when you spend more money for one of these engines. Is the high dollar pan a must? No but it is nice.

As everyone says there are many ways to spend much less money on A/S racing and still go fast.

I continue to think that this is one of the best classes in the SCCA.

Philip

EvanK
01-08-2009, 10:23 PM
Just out of curiosity, what does 440hp translate to into rear wheel HP?

Anyone?

wre46
01-08-2009, 10:46 PM
OK, what would you say If I told you that for 7K you could get a 400 RHP motor that reved to 6000 rpm and ran all day long. I ran this motor to 165mph at CMS.

It was a Chevy 385 Fastburn with the Hot cam CRATE motor. SEALED! We had to change the pan and used an MSD Distributor. Made 396 HP and 390 FT torque.

Saying that I know every engine builder hates crate motors. But its cheap racing.

Anyone who thinks that these new aluminum haeds will be a cost reduction isgood idea, I have some beach front property in Utah I want to sell you. For the Chevy guys, the Edelbrock head does not "bolt on" the existing 305 motor. This means development of a 313ci on a 350 block, new crank, rods, pistons, and now cam. And our dyno time is $800 if you bring it in, $400 if we do the motor. So the "new development " motor will be well over 10K. I just hope its better then the developed 305 we have in the car now.

jkopp
01-08-2009, 10:56 PM
Uh, Jeff, trust me, this group don't like crate motors!

We're about to sign another local roundy-round track up on them. Saving grace for many a weekly track these days. :thumbsup: Maybe someday the elite will wise up. :yesnod:

BMiller
01-09-2009, 10:01 AM
I'm almost glad (almost) I crashed, it's saving me a shit load of money. I can go rent a SM 10 weekends and still be less than what I would have spent on 1 AS motor....arrive and drive. :cheers:

Ted Johnson
01-09-2009, 03:11 PM
And for less than that I can build my 250 cc shifter kart, throw it in the back of my truck and turn lap times as fast as some formula cars. Karting makes the most sense in terms of racing dollars but it still isn't racing a v8 pony car. Just pushing the start button on my AS car puts a big smile on my face and its not anywhere near $16k. Sitting on the grid in a spec miata under the 2 minutes whistle does nothing. When theres 5 or more AS cars idling its like a war waiting to happen. Priceless experience at the runoffs just sitting on the grid even though I know I probably won't be on the podium. Still worth every penny.

Fred Hetherwick
01-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Ted, I totally agree. Even after 25 plus years of doing this, it still makes me smile! :thumbsup:

:cheers: :cheers:

fairlane_68
01-09-2009, 05:10 PM
When theres 5 or more AS cars idling its like a war waiting to happen.


That right there was what I thought when I first heard the AS cars fire up last year. Just an ungodly, nasty bunch of hot rods, waiting to unleash hell. That should be turned into some sort of AS motto or something.

thomas toth
01-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Agreed!:cheers: I always wondered if the Formula 440 guys said the same thing.....nah

Tom

Scott Davie
01-09-2009, 06:37 PM
Totally, agree! Racing AS is just like having sex:) , but it lasts alot longer;) . For now it looks like I'll have to go back to just plan sex and sell my car (cars is still for sell- make an offer). Life is so much better when the economy is booming, then we all can have the best of both worlds.

kbsmith1
01-09-2009, 06:50 PM
Yep, AS is the way to go!! Rumbling engines, big fat a** cars that are
tire limited. And engines that I can build myself and do pretty well
with. Awesome!

I can't stand the sound of the F440/F500, nor the sound of many
Mazda RX-7s. They sound like a hive of bumble-bees in a poorly
constructed tin can, gack.

harpster98
01-09-2009, 10:23 PM
[QUOTE=EvanK]Just out of curiosity, what does 440hp translate to into rear wheel HP?

Anyone?[/QUOTE

Should be about 380 to 390 at the rear wheels.

Scott
01-11-2009, 10:38 AM
I can't stand the sound of the F440/F500, nor the sound of many
Mazda RX-7s. They sound like a hive of bumble-bees in a poorly
constructed tin can, gack.


F500 = Weed whackers! At Waterford Hills last year, we had an ITS guy show up on on the F500 grid last year with full gear on holding a weed whacker he found in our tractor shed. I have a pic somewhere of it. Classic!

fairlane_68
01-11-2009, 02:07 PM
F500 = Weed whackers! At Waterford Hills last year, we had an ITS guy show up on on the F500 grid last year with full gear on holding a weed whacker he found in our tractor shed. I have a pic somewhere of it. Classic!

That's priceless. I'd love to see that. :thumbsup: