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koscieldrk
05-27-2008, 10:26 AM
Any results from the 2 nationals this weekend at Nelson.

racerbob4
05-27-2008, 12:29 PM
AS was in the 3rd group.

1st Rich Jones, Mustang, best lap 1: 13.120
2nd Ken McViocker, Camaro, best lap 1:15.691 completed 14 laps
3rd Jon Lane, Mustang, best lap 1:18.565 DNF completed 1 lap

sorry about monday, but we left after sundays race.

koscieldrk
05-27-2008, 01:21 PM
I saw the results on My Laps. How come Rich Jones and Ken McVicker are not going to receive any National Points for Mondays event.

PerCSA #77 & 83 AS moved to end of field. BOTH WILL NOT BE ELIGIBLE FOR NATIONAL POINTS.

Kevin P. McClain
05-27-2008, 08:27 PM
Not AS but in the same group...

I give you Mr. Pintaric's Wild Ride !!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=50lGdQvVF3Q

You have to have sound to get the full effect...

Glad David is alright...except his wallet was pronounced D.O.A.!!


http://www.midwest-x19.com/images/HPIM0241-small.JPG

I'm assuming that corner station was manned at the time...Thank God everyone is safe.

David posted on the prodcar site...

The "screaming" was of frustration. I knew it was going to be a "big one" and was angry at myself. Funny thing, and I don't try to be a tough guy, but I was never in fear, just on a ride.

I don't think the car rolled, just got pointed at the sky, which is more than enough.

Thanks for the assistance and words of encouragement from so many of you who stopped by at my paddock. Despite me being a "Touring guy outsider" ya'll treat me fairly decent.

ASGTO
05-27-2008, 11:12 PM
Yeah buddy. Wow! I watched that last night when Dave posted it on YouTube. He and the corner workers were both very fortunate! I talked with him today. He thinks that a rear ball joint or control arm broke and snapped him loose. That happened once before at Topeka with Lance Knupp driving it. I think a rear control arm broke that time. The rocker panel that connects to the piece behind the front wheel are $6000 each and both are tore up along with "MANY" other parts. He is thinking that it will be cheaper in the long run to get another car and use the red one as a parts car. I agree with him!

David Pintaric
05-27-2008, 11:59 PM
Upon further review the was NO broken suspension part that caused this incident. It's all on the driver.

I don't want any viscious rumors floating around.

socalta
05-28-2008, 12:00 AM
that was one wild ride ... glad all are safe....

fairlane_68
05-28-2008, 12:20 AM
Ouch. That makes my wallet hurt. And I haven't seen it in a long time.

jimwheeler
05-28-2008, 07:51 AM
David,
Glad you are OK, and, obviously, sorry for the condition of your ride.
Jim

t4wallace
05-28-2008, 09:27 AM
David,
Glad you are OK, and, obviously, sorry for the condition of your ride.
Jim
X2. Glad all are safe.

Something about the tire wall in that area "tosses" cars over the other side. I've personally watched it happen and seen the outcome two other times.

David Pintaric
05-28-2008, 09:48 AM
X2. Glad all are safe.

Something about the tire wall in that area "tosses" cars over the other side. I've personally watched it happen and seen the outcome two other times.

It makes for good entertainment though. I can't tell you how many people's Internet viewing pleasure I have provided since Saturday. If I can find a way to market this I'd be a millionaire...

brad-tsr
05-28-2008, 09:53 AM
I saw the results on My Laps. How come Rich Jones and Ken McVicker are not going to receive any National Points for Mondays event.

PerCSA #77 & 83 AS moved to end of field. BOTH WILL NOT BE ELIGIBLE FOR NATIONAL POINTS.
Rich ran good both days. Car was perfect. Cruised to the win in both races. Set a new track record in the monday race. In impound Rich and Ken were both moved to the bottom of the finishing order for (get this) modified door intrusion beams.
Brad

jimwheeler
05-28-2008, 10:06 AM
That's the kind of thinking that helps improve car counts throughout SCCA. They ought to be ashamed. Not the drivers, the stewards. Put a note in the log book and let them get it fixed.

King Matt
05-28-2008, 10:27 AM
That's the kind of thing that makes it really hard to run a car in different sanctioning bodies. In NASA, for example, it's legal to remove the OE intrusion beam as long as the car has door bars that extend out to the door skin. Once that modification has been made, it's really tough to go back.

koscieldrk
05-28-2008, 10:30 AM
Dave, Glad to hear you are OK. The last time I saw someone at Nelson go over the wall and almost go through a corner station was an AS car 2 years ago, he lost it in the kink before the front straightaway.

brad-tsr
05-28-2008, 10:45 AM
That's the kind of thinking that helps improve car counts throughout SCCA. They ought to be ashamed. Not the drivers, the stewards. Put a note in the log book and let them get it fixed.
That most likely would have been the outcome if not for one diminutive tech worker with a need to exhalt his own authority. Ughh, I said I would'nt do that.
Brad

ASGTO
05-28-2008, 11:19 AM
That's the kind of thinking that helps improve car counts throughout SCCA. They ought to be ashamed. Not the drivers, the stewards. Put a note in the log book and let them get it fixed.


Gosh dang SCCA! At some point they need to get their heads out of their butt and get some fresh air. You mean to tell me that someone spent thousands of dollars to come race....they won and were DQ'd for a stinking door bar. That is right there with a tail light bulb being out, a cracked windshield or something else stupid I can't think of. I can't imagine another competitor being upset about losing to a guy missing a factory door brace! Sheesh! I just wish common sense could somehow prevail just once in my lifetime. Let's worry about stuff that matters like weight, ride height, engine components, etc. I am sure the person that inherited the win did not want to that way.

t4wallace
05-28-2008, 12:26 PM
Do those saying it's "not a big deal" know what they weigh? They're pretty substantial. And the rulebook doesn't say you can remove them -- so you can't.

Having said that, it's pure :censored: BS to have yanked their points at a mid-season national. I agree with Jim -- note the :censored: log book and move on. A noted log book ensures issues like that are addressed before the Runoffs (if the driver is smart, that is).

koscieldrk
05-28-2008, 12:54 PM
Tom you are correct on the rule, and yes a noted log book would have been substantial.

I,d like to see it clarified wether or not they were removed or as stated in the thread that they were modified. Theoretically drilling a hole in them would be a modification.

jimwheeler
05-28-2008, 12:55 PM
In our division, if your log book is noted with something like this, it will not get a tech sticker at the next event, if the issue was not corrected. I don't know the letter of the law, but common sense should rule, when it comes to getting racers on the track. Taking their money and then taking away their finishes is crap.

t4wallace
05-28-2008, 04:14 PM
Tom you are correct on the rule, and yes a noted log book would have been substantial.

I,d like to see it clarified wether or not they were removed or as stated in the thread that they were modified. Theoretically drilling a hole in them would be a modification.
You're right Dwaine, it did say modified and I agree that facts would be better than opinions as to what was done to get them in trouble.

The way the rule reads (pg. 475) to me, there isn't even any gray with saying "my cage door bars allowed me to gut them."
9. Safety
a. Original door hinges, safety intrusion beam, and remainder of door structure shall be retained. Doors may be pinned, not bolted, for safety. All door glass and winding mechanisms may
be removed.

ASGTO
05-28-2008, 05:17 PM
when you read that wording it seems clear. It just looks like there would be a easier way without so many bs rules that don't matter in the big picture. One of my friends was dq'd in 04 in T2 because the vin on the vin plate did not match the one on the door. There was no vin on the radiator support because it had been replaced due to an impact. The car was built from a wreck that took out the front clip and driver door. It was repaired and turned into a race car it had 3 1/2 log books but on this day he was DQ'd. Stupid rules ruin racing. That is all I am saying. They should have given him a warning since it wasn't a competitive advantage at the Nelson's Ledges race.

t4wallace
05-28-2008, 06:02 PM
Stupid rules ruin racing. That is all I am saying. They should have given him a warning since it wasn't a competitive advantage at the Nelson's Ledges race.
Chris -- we are agreeing on the stupidity of not allowing the points and the finish to stand (not knowing all the facts). And I completely agree there are some stupid rules in Touring and now less so in AS with the recent changes. At minimum, clarify the rule to the driver, note the book and move on.

However, let's say the door bars were removed (I'm NOT saying that is what happened). I would contend that IS a competitive advantage no matter the track. Either way, something was clearly out of spec. Some would argue that if it was this obvious of an infraction, justice was served since the rules are clear as it relates to door bars. Again, facts would be helpful here and I'm not speculating.

Plus, it's not like they were running a 350 or something. :eek: Wait, we can do that now.

Maybe I'm an idealist, but I think obvious rule infractions should be enforced at some level at any national -- with reason and logic. For example, if a NASA driver shows up and the bars aren't there, cut some slack so they can get the car to SCCA prep (Matt's point has merit) and they leave knowing they're wanted back. But if it's an experienced national/runoffs driver, I believe they should be held to the standard of the rule book, or the class suffers.

fairlane_68
05-28-2008, 06:18 PM
when you read that wording it seems clear. It just looks like
there would be a easier way without so many bs rules that don't
matter in the big picture. One of my friends was dq'd in 04 in T2
because the vin on the vin plate did not match the one on the door.
There was no vin on the radiator support because it had been replaced
due to an impact. The car was built from a wreck that took out the front
clip and driver door. It was repaired and turned into a race car it had 3 1/2 log books but on this day he was DQ'd. Stupid rules ruin racing. That is all I am saying. They should have given him a warning since it wasn't a competitve
advantage at the Nelson's Ledges race.


two cents on the way:


OK...now we're getting into an interesting subject. This same thing came up when I worked tech this past April. Between myself, Frank Diringer, and Russell Neely, we all had a nice discussion about the why's and whynot's of making VINs mandatory. It started when someone asked if VINs were required in AS. I responded that I wasn't sure, but I didn't think so because (at that time) we only had classifications for Mustangs and Camaros/Firebirds. The GTO had just been classed. I mentioned that there were three AS cars (that I knew of) that began their racing life as a body-in-white, and therefore would have no VIN at all. Russell mentioned the fact that alot of cars are also built into racers from junked/wrecked cars, and that when they have those types of origins, matching VINs throughout the car will be impossible. Doors will be different, hoods, trunk lids, whatever, it will be different from the VIN on the dash. (And by the way... body panels on newer cars and trucks are tagged/marked with the VIN for the security of the vehicle, as in if it's stolen and taken to a chop-shop, and used to verify the integrity of the parts installed. It is not meant to determine the identification or "as-built" data of the vehicle. That is what the permanent tag on the dash and door jamb is for.)

In my own opinion, VINs should not be required except in classes that require a vehicle be in showroom condition with little or no mods. Any class that requires a roll cage, fuel cell, and/or fire suppression system should not be required to have a VIN. Instead, a detailed, fully documented history of the car starting from the day the license plates were turned in and the car was taken off the road for whatever reason, including a picture of the car before the build was started. It should only have to be presented during annual tech inspection and available to the Chief Steward for an event, and once the car has been through it's annual tech, all disputes about the car are over at that point. None of this "legal at one race, illegal at another" garbage. As far as Club Racing goes, the GCR is the gospel, and, (regardless of how confusing it is) like the Bible, correct interpretation should only be left to those who are well qualified to do so, (I.E.: the CRB, Ad Hoc, and other similar committees) not some tech inspector who thinks he knows the original intent of the CRB.

However...since AS has all these new cars classed into it, like the 20 different Mustangs that can now race in AS (sarcasm in there), VINs may be needed to determine what spec line a car falls under. So I may have just wasted 5 minutes of your lives that you may never get back. It took twenty minutes to type it...

And some of you are still reading...:D

kbsmith1
05-28-2008, 08:07 PM
[QUOTE]Any class that requires a roll cage, fuel cell, and/or fire suppression system should not be required to have a VIN. Instead, a detailed, fully documented history of the car starting from the day the license plates were turned in and the car was taken off the road for whatever reason, including a picture of the car before the build was started. /QUOTE]

That is really excessive. If that was required very few of the race
cars in existence would be able to pass. And what purpose would all
the required documentation serve? You couldn't build from any junk
car.

ASGTO
05-28-2008, 08:38 PM
the vin in AS is pointless. Your mustang for example started life as a v6....correct? I understand in touring having at least the dash vin for the 10 year eligibility and such but having all the body panels matching is a joke!

fairlane_68
05-28-2008, 08:39 PM
Any class that requires a roll cage, fuel cell, and/or fire suppression system should not be required to have a VIN. Instead, a detailed, fully documented history of the car starting from the day the license plates were turned in and the car was taken off the road for whatever reason, including a picture of the car before the build was started.

That is really excessive. If that was required very few of the race
cars in existence would be able to pass. And what purpose would all
the required documentation serve? You couldn't build from any junk
car.

To show that the car was built to current GCR specs (including Fasttrack updates), so that no one could come in later and say something isn't legal per their own interpretation of the rules. It's a fallback. I don't know everything about the SCCA and Club Racing, nor do I claim to, but its an idea.

thomas toth
05-29-2008, 12:04 AM
Fairlane...one set back to your idea (actually 2). First once you have your tech done saying everything is legal there would be no inspection during the year. Ie: passes tech with door bars and a front bumper beam which gets removed one weekend later. Remember these cars keep evolving, few are taking 100% advantage of all the rules....as each race weekend comes changes are made to try to gain more speed.

The second point is that you do not have one person doing the inspections for everyone in the USA. All inspectors are volunteers some of which have a very limited understanding of the rules for EVERY Class. They may know everything about a Formula Vee and nothing about a T-1 Corvette. They do the best job that they can and allow us to police ourselves to a degree. Just because you go through tech and something is overlooked doesn't make it legal. The initial and annual tech for the most part is to make sure the race car is safe....not always legal.

Tom
#38 Camaro

John Rissberger
05-29-2008, 12:26 AM
[QUOTE=fairlane_68]two cents on the way:


a detailed, fully documented history of the car starting from the day the license plates were turned in and the car was taken off the road for whatever reason, including a picture of the car before the build was started. It should only have to be presented during annual tech inspection and available to the Chief Steward for an event (end Quote)


NO, I do not agree with having vin # or a detailed fully documented history of the car for A/S. All the information that is needed, is on the first pages of the log book.

Detailed documentation of a car like mine, that is on its 16th year of racing in
American Sedan, would require at least one semi truck load of recycled paper!

If there is a problem, note it in the log book, and lets go racing.

John Rissberger
# 10 Camaro Oregon

oldtransamdriver
05-29-2008, 01:25 AM
What is the purpose - just more paperwork nonsense? A Sedan is now just a hodgepodge of rules, continuos changes, bitching and complaining etc.

NASA has the right idea - power to weight. Keep it simple. Too bad they aren't in the NW.

BTW John, were you at the Seattle double nationals? who was there? results?

Robert Barg

fairlane_68
05-29-2008, 07:28 AM
Like I said. It's an idea.

wre46
05-29-2008, 10:40 PM
So you go to a practice day and ball up your 10 year old AS car. You cut the roof off and put the cage in the "spare" chassis and go racing. Tech would never know you did this as you passed annual tech. All they look at is the logbook number matches the one stamped in the Main hoop. I do not have and VIN ID's on my car. The rules do not state I need them, and the rules do not state I cannot build a car from Body in White.

With gas and entry fees rising, and track time decreasing, I think I know a couple of National races that will think twice about their next few races.

Have we heard what was modified? If missing, they are toast. If a minor modification, note the log book. They can and should appeal the penalty if they where in the gray area

Remember back in the early days of Electromotive Igns in Production classes. It stated they needed to have a distributor in the car. I saw the Distributor-less ignition installed and the distributors tie wrapped to the roll bars.. They read the rules very carefully!:thumbsup:

Kevin P. McClain
05-30-2008, 05:39 PM
Remember back in the early days of Electromotive Igns in Production classes. It stated they needed to have a distributor in the car. I saw the Distributor-less ignition installed and the distributors tie wrapped to the roll bars.. They read the rules very carefully!:thumbsup:

Turn signal switches and stalks in AS ...same deal.

jimwheeler
05-30-2008, 05:52 PM
Kevin,
Like my qualifying time getting bounced at my first runoffs for a headlight bulb and side marker lights. I was, as I recall, 32nd at the time. They really called me in because some tech dweeb didn't like my splitter. 8 hours later I got my tech sticker back.
wheel

David Pintaric
06-14-2008, 12:56 PM
Update:

I was at the body shop this past morning delivering parts. The car will likely be finished this coming Friday (June 20th).

With some help from a whole bunch of people from all over the country, Humpy Dumpty is being glued back together again. I have recieved help from so many people, people I did not know before, that it has been quite the experience. Thank you all for your help. I know I cannot menton some names, but rest assured I will not forget.

I now know how Joe Gaudette felt last year when he had his bad experience at Pocono.

Kevin P. McClain
06-14-2008, 02:05 PM
That's great news David. So the motor and drivetrain were OK ??

David Pintaric
06-14-2008, 04:50 PM
That's great news David. So the motor and drivetrain were OK ??

It looks as though that is the case. We will test the car at a track before showing up at a race, though.